
The Chicago Tribune's Exploring Race blog has posed the question "What if Michelle Obama was white?" This "well, duh" question has already been explored by most black blogs and the universal answer is that he wouldn't have even been a senator, let alone president.
But they asked anyway, you know, for poops and giggles I suppose and they will likely get some passionate responses (and passionate responses to those responses), but the reality is despite all of our progress in the better acceptance of interracial couples, it's hard to get elected to office when you are a black person married a white person.
Case in point: Former Tennessee Rep. Harold Ford, Jr. who I wrote about earlier this year. A member of our quasi "black aristocracy" (as in he comes from a political family of influence and means), Ford reached prominence on his family name and good looks, then ran a campaign for the senate where he lost by a narrow margin. Some say he was hurt by his religious pandering. Others say he was hurt by a Republican backed commercial that portrayed Ford as a white woman chasing, playboy bunny hound.
Which was kind of, sort of true, but mean/racist because what did that have to do with being a senator? Then Ford married Emily Threlkeld and ALL. KINDS. OF. HELL. broke loose in "Blackland."
Comments from Big Head DC's blog:
"I think he has not given his political career any thought. If he runs for any office again, surely he won’t win. You don’t carry the black vote and marry white. I will never vote for him again."-- Pat, Memphis
"The reason so many blacks are upset is because Harold Ford Jr. has always courted the black vote and black people except when it comes to his marriage. I am sure when he is running for office and goes into the black neighborhoods he will not take his white wife along. This also gives black women the assumption that as black men progress their appreciation of black women decreases. It also gives the impression that they are saying “I have made it and here is my trophy”!!!!!" -- Connie, Memphis
"The only use Harold had for blacks period in the 9th Congressional Dist was votes. After 10 years of his representation we ALL need Anus Reconstruction Surgery. He did a number on us. This young man took Self Serving Politician to a new level." -- Anonymous
And there is this long, over-the-top, angry note which pretty much sums up how well this all went over with some blacks. It essentially accuses Ford of treason, then slaps him around for a perceived slight against Martin Luther King, Jr.:
This couple had the nerve to have their engagement party on MLK’s 40th anniversary marking his assassination in Memphis. This was very disrespectful to the dead leader and to the community. It was insensitive and disrespectful to have an engagement party on this day at all. However adding injury to insult, MLK and his black wife did not make the sacrifices that they did so that well off black men can marry white women as trophies. (Seventy) of black families are being raised by single mothers, which is leading to the deterioration of the country as a whole. Children who are abandoned by their fathers are becoming negative statistics and impacting the entire society. Many black men do not value black women enough to marry them and raise their families, partially due to the after effects of slavery and the medias propaganda that white women are more desirable and should be valued. As a politician this man is supposed to be a role model, by this action he is setting the example that well off black men should abandon their responsibilities to their communities and marry trophy white women who should be valued more than black women. His fiancée is an unattractive woman, with a seemingly mediocre background and would probably never have married an attractive well off man of her own race. So one would get the impression that this is not love, but that he is showcasing a white “trophy” on MLK’s anniversary, which is the height of disrespect and in my opinion shows that he is brainwashed, confused and needs deprogramming. Many people view this marriage as political suicide.
You don't have to be an sociologist or a psychologist to figure out that despite our progress there are a still a lot insecurities in the black community and nothing brings them out more passionately than that shunted feeling black people (especially black women) get when black men who "make it" marry outside their race.
When you're used to getting kicked around it's hard not to take it personal. Even I get that feeling from time-to-time and I like to considering myself pretty egalitarian about the issue. I'm almost two people about it with the logical side of my brain saying people should be judged by their character and can marry whomever they want because their marriage is about them, not me and I wouldn't want someone nosing in my personal business, casting judgment on my intentions.
But my gut wants to strangle Elin Woods.
It's insane because Tiger Woods is not my personal property, so what do I care? Yet I do. This is because I grew up watching black women get unceremoniously dumped all the time. Or seeing them not in the running at all as viable mates. I can't help it. I take it personal, but I temper my response, my logic reminding me that this is NOT about me.
Plus, being a trophy wife isn't exactly an ideal thing, considering a lot of it is hedged on your appearance, but it's the wanting to be desired that gets us. Everyone wants to be desired. Everyone. Especially black women. Hence why being married to a white person, particularly a black man married to a white woman, is a death knell to getting the black vote.
Black women and older black voters make up the bulk of the black vote and they are the ones most likely to not approve due to that giant "I've been personally affronted!" feeling they would have every time they'd see someone like Emily Threlkeld's smiling face. And any smart person running against someone like Ford would use this rift against him, never quite saying he was a sell-out, but would repeatedly question his loyalty to his constituents, arguing that Ford would only serve his own interests, not that of the community.
It just wouldn't work. All things aren't that equal in Blackland yet.
Not that white people are 100 percent comfortable with this notion either. There's a reason why a lot of politicians are as personally boring as possible (straight, married to someone who is not "exotic" in any kind of way, Christian, usually with some kids), because that's what voters what. There are exceptions to the rule (Jeb Bush is married to a Latina -- but then he was governor of Florida, so that probably helped him), but for most politicians the rule of the day is to be married, preferrably within their own ethnicity and religious sect, be Christian, be heterosexual and not to have any kink in the closest that could come out to haunt them.
(Like paid hookers or interns or Euro sex clubs or nasty text messages or cocaine or secret half-black, out-of-wedlock children or male pages or hook-up trolling in airport men's restrooms.)
None of that stuff. Can't have it. Americans are both notorious freaks and prudes all at the same time, hence all the politicians have to at least be able to appear as close to June and Ward Cleaver as possible. People want the fantasy. They will vote for the fantasy.
For many in Blackland, a white woman is simply not part of that fantasy.


171 comments:
Every time I see a comment like this it makes me wonder why my worldview is so different. Certainly it's not generational. I'm 44 yo black woman who was borned and raised in Alabama. I still live in the Deep South, but I simply have never considered black men to be my exclusive property. I've never cared who they dated/mated with and didn't see their choices as a slight to me. I'm grateful as hell that this is true, but it's really odd to me that it's so.
I like HF as a politician. I thought his Senate run was something of a trial balloon for Obama's run. If he hadn't done so well, I don't think it would've boded well for the O-man. His run was a microcosm for Obama's 50-state strategy as he went to East Tennessee, an area that's not exactly Negro friendly and made inroads there.
I really don't care who he or Tiger Woods or anybody else besides my own husband marries. I think it's absurd that black women feel this way, and it's a mindset that's hurting no one for us.
If he did his job and served his Congressional district well then that's all that should be required of him. Otherwise we all do ourselves a disservice when we submit a candidate's wife to a paper bag test to garner our approval.
roslyn: I think it's based in that insecurity from feeling rejected by society as inferior. That's really what it comes down to.
If things were truly more egalitarian more blacks would feel the way you do, but as long as things are woefully lopsided there is going to be this open wound. The problem is distinguishing the difference between the inherit racism of black women being labeled as inferior and an individual practicing their own right of free choice in who they want to marry. The problem is how judgmental people are and how personal they take it.
I'm aware of my flaws, so I work at tempering and correcting them, but for others the pain is simply to great. It feels horrible when you think you've been rejected for something you can't do anything about, which was be born black in America. Even if that's not what's really happening. Even if the person you think is slighting you is just doing what best suits them. After all, why would anyone want someone who doesn't want them?
Still, the pain remains. The issue of black women being treated as invisible in our society remains. And the boosterism/consumerism of all things white remains. That's the perception and that perception colors people's view of politicians like Harold Ford, Jr.
re:But my gut wants to strangle Elin Woods
Ha! I thought was only one!
thank you for writing this. you are exactly right, it's a two headed fight. i know and understandthat of course i want everyone to marry the person that makes them happy, regardless of color (sex even) and it's none of my business. but there is the other side of me that everytime i see a successful black man with a white woman wants to know why i'm not good enough. (like they even know who i am) and then the double standard because when white men date black women they are intelligent, radiant women. while black men seem to date the first white hoochie mama that isn't scared to date a black man.
also, politically, a black man with a white woman isn't getting any white votes either. except maybe white women with fantasies.
Forget all that politically correct "we are the world" BS. Part of the reason I voted for Barack Obama was because he was married to Michelle. I don't care how it sounds. I am a black woman. The idea of black woman being married to the most powerful man on the planet means something to me. And I don't believe I could trust Obama if he were married to a white woman. Because he was simply an extraordinary candidate, he would have won my vote anyway. But I wouldn't feel as hopeful as I do about him. But that said, I wouldn't be as disappointed in him as I am in Harold, because Obama was raised by white women. Making his choosing Michelle to be his wife even more impressive to me. But Harold was reared in the black community. Amongst some of the best and brightest of our community. You mean to tell me he couldn't find a sista with Michelle's education and the bourgie social background to match his own. Now, I heard he broke up his engagement to a black woman some years ago because he has that OJ/Tiger complex. Whatever.
And as for Elin Woods, yeah she pisses me off. You think Tiger would have married an uneducated glirified babysitter/failed bikini model if she were black. I highly doubt it.
But anyway, I love that Obama is married to a sista and I ain't ashamed to say it. I don't think it makes me bitter or jealous. I'm just in touch with what's real.
Snob:
You make such a good point about your rational mind beleiving people's personal lives and who they choose to marry has nothing to do with you. I feel the exact same way. However, I can't help but feel a little slighted when I see a sucessful black with a white woman. I was just discussing this issue with my girlfriends. We discussed our black male classmates who graduated from law school with us. We couldn't help but notice that all of the few black men we attened school with were either married to, or in realtionships with white women or non-black women. I have to be honest, it does hurt a little. I mean black women not being deemed as desirable in general...our beauty not being appreciated. It's like a black man will be with any white woman, but if you see a black man with a sista she's flawless! It hurts also because like you mentioned, things are so lopsided in this country. It seems like black women participate in this whole interracial dating phenomenom far less than any other racial group, while black men participate more. That being said, Harold Ford always rubbed me the wrong way. He's never dated black women so it comes as no shock that he wouldn't marry one. I wish him luck on his future bid for gov. of TN.
Read Evia's blog regarding black men being ours exclusively. Black women need to see all men as options for dating and mating and stop waiting for Mr. Perfect Black buy to sweep us off our feet because he isn't too concerned for us he wants a white women instead.
http://www.bfinterracialmarriage.blogspot.com/
or
http://www.blackfemaleinterracialmarriage.com/
Okay, maybe I'm crazy, but I really don't get it. Why do we see these men's choices of mate as a rejection of us? I mean, if I knew HF or TW personally and had dated them perhaps I can see that mindset. But they wouldn't know me if they ran me over in a Wal-Mart parking lot.
The fact that the majority culture rejects the notion of black female beauty is an issue of the majority culture. I have no way of knowing if these men feel that way or not. I don't know them. And even if they don't see black women as beautiful or as potential mates...and?
It just seems to me that we get so wrapped up in symbolism and gestures that we miss the point. I heard a lot of people say that they liked Obama because he had a visibly black wife. I thought that was rather sad. Don't get me wrong, I like Madame Obama very much, but if I didn't agree with her husband's policies I would not have voted for him.
This mindset that someone else's choices is somehow reflective on us, or is somehow a rejection of us is debilitating and must be unlearned.
While I agree that a political typically cannot marry outside his or her race - I do feel like Roslyn in the sense that I really don't care about an individual's preference to one race or another.
I could care less about gold diggers or whatever controversy scheme you think these women did to get these famous Black men. HF was KNOWN to love women of other backgrounds. Most of AAs/Blacks aren't like my husband likes to phrase it, "full bloods" any way.
I agree with anon - see ALL men for WHO they are and not "I'm Black man friendly" only. Chris Rock said it best, We're mad at ourselves for not thinking outside the box.
Can't you just be happy that an individual has found his or her mate despite their backgrounds or race? Love and marriage is hard enough without haters.
Sorry - just a little "raw". This is an issue that sets it off in my book.
I didn't vote for Obama because of Michelle, I voted for him because of his issues.
Barack would have got my vote either way as I agreed with his policies but my support was cemented by the flyness, intelligence and fabulousness of Michelle. It's not just about her being a black woman but the kind of woman she is - someone to admire, a great role model and fashion icon to boot. What the heck, it's SHE who makes Barack look good!
Roslyn, I have to agree with Snob and others here. Maybe if I hadn't spent my dating years in the Twin Cities I might feel differently. If you don't know anything about where I live let me run it down for you. There are TONS of Black men married to, living with and dating White women here. (A friend of mine who was visiting from out-of-town noted that she had not seen one Black couple during her entire two week stay in the Twin Cities.)
Apart from the messages I've received in society about the undesirability of Black women, I grew up experiencing it. I've watched Black men repeatedly chose White women over Black women. It doesn't seem to matter if she is overweight, uneducated or crude, brothas are still running after her. Yet, when it comes to us they have a thousand and one rules about how we should look, think, behave, etc. I've witnessed three cousins of mine come up here from the South and eventually gravitate towards White women. (It happens so often with Black men who are new to this city that my friends and I now make jokes about how long it will take them.)
As snob said, on one level I believe it's their choice to be with whoever they want but I must admit another part of me is bothered by it.
hey at least the Ford family will finally get what they want, the next generation may actually be able to pass for white. I don't know about the hair though, I see your buckshots Harold
it is not the fact that they marry white women that is insulting, it is the ones they choose
Ellin Woods was a swedish nanny of another PGA player's children.
If Tiger had married a white woman that he met at Stanford it wouldn't be so glaringly lop-sided.
Lola: I have often joked with my white female friends that they should be insulted by Elin on the grounds that Tiger didn't even see them as "white" enough to wife. I think I've more than once referred to Elin as being the purest of the whitest of the white women of the world coming from the land of white women in Swede-Fin-Norse country of Europe where I don't think you can get much whiter without become opaque.
It's obvious that as a swimsuit model she is the prototype trophy wife. When my gut relaxes I mostly just laugh at the absurdity of the match -- which I think was your point. It's like Tiger went to a store a purchased her rather than met her in some organic fashion.
But then, almost all his girlfriends pre-Elin had a bit of a pre-packaged, "Fembot" feel to them.
If she was white people still would have a problem with him. He did NOT win because of his wifes skin color. Look at JJ and Al Sharpton they have black wives and will NEVER see the White House. It is funny how people are still making excuses for why he won. A lot of black are jealous of Barack and Michelle. Barack and Michelle don't care about their jealousy either.
People forget about white Bill CLinton winning 80% of the blk vote both terms in the 90's with his WHITE WIFE!!!
Delurker alert!
While I completely understand and relate to Snob's (and others') perspective, as I use to think the same way - I have to agree with Roslyn. You cannot change the past or the environment in which you grow up, but as an adult, you can decide how you want your worldview to be. Being personally affronted because a black man married a non-black woman only makes sense if you feel like only black men find black women attractive. How many black women who complain about black men dating out would even check for a non-black man? Gerard Butler doesn't count.
It's one thing if a black male politician doesn't serve his community - by all means, withhold support. But doing so SOLELY because of who he's married to is rather counterproductive, and a little insane.
As for the media's role in mainstream culture - black men are rarely shown in a positive light. Yet, that doesn't keep them from marrying interracially at almost twice the rate of black women. Doesn't make them inherently bad - to me it means that someone ain't paying attention to what mainstream culture dictates and are living their lives how they see fit. Black women would benefit from doing the same, I think.
Plus, since when did a black male politician being married to a black women guarantee integrity? I didn't get that memo.
People will just not keep it real. I two am a two-brainer when it comes to this. I was not offended by Tiger Woods because I never expected much from Mr. Cablasian himself. However; I was a little dissapointed in HFJ when I found out to whom he was married. Then my rational brained checked me other half and told me it did not matter, maybe it's true love.
Snob,
Love, love, love this post. Here's my two cents. My twenty-five cents, rather.
For all the poise, fortitude and intelligence Barack Obama displayed throughout the course of the campaign, there's no way in hell he'd be putting his hand on the bible in a few weeks without Michelle on his arm. Had he shown up in our living rooms, on our television sets, or on the cover of our magazines clutching some Heidi Montag* look-a-like, we'd have dumped him in the same vat of Useless Negro Gumbo we tossed Clarence and Eldrick in moons ago.
In crass terms, perhaps a white spouse may have helped Obama win Iowa by a larger margin (and might have put him over the top in New Hampshire, Hillary's tears notwithstanding... ), but that presupposes Oprah giving him her valuable marketing blessing prior to the caucuses. I can't see that happening without Michelle in the mix. She was as much a part of his ability to 'close the deal' with the black electorate, post Iowa, as was his party registration and position on the Iraq war.
Then, there's the content of Michelle's life's story. It was every bit as valuable to the campaign's success as Barack's speech on race. Can you imagine a white Mrs. Obama delivering an address as moving as the one the current Mrs. Obama gave at the Democratic National Convention? Or, more to the point, can you think of what Mrs. Ford might offer the nation if put in a situation somewhat like Michelle's that night? (Would a white woman even need to have her intelligence or femminity ratified by the voting public through a nationally televised prime time speech?)
[On a side note; as a male observer, at times during the race, it seemed that black and white women of a certain age were selectively disturbed by attacks on each camps' most prominent female members. I don't recall Hillary's people or Gerry Ferraro ever speaking out in defense of Michelle once the GOP aimed it's guns on her. And conversely, I can't think of those in the 'Oprah wing' of the Obama camp ever making a pointed comment denouncing the sexism enveloped in the critical comments directed at Senator Clinton. Please correct me if I'm wrong on this. ]
So, simply stated, no black wife, no way in hell he gets the nuke codes.
And with all due respect to Roslyn, I know of no other black woman--mother, grandmothers, aunties, girlfriend, former girlfriends, cousins, co-workers, landlady's, you name it--who have a current address in this dimension that aren't as madly in love with Michelle Obama as they are with her husband. And her skin tone--not the color mind you, her very shade of brown, is a crucial component of their love affair. As is their desire that I not show up with an engagement ring on the finger of some Heidi Montag* look-a-like in the near future.
Now personally ... rationally ... I have no absolutely no problem whatsoever with black men and women dating outside their race. More power to you. But on a personal level however, I've found the most unerringly cruel things running through my mind when I see a black woman dating a white man... so I think I have a fairly good sense of how that might feel with the gender and racial roles are reversed.
Part of it, like you said, is wanting to be desired, needing to know that you're something to be cherished by the people who--it should seem--would want to cherish you most. But it's also my inability to rationalize how someone finds love in in the face, hands, hair and home of a person who looks so very much like the people who spent hundreds of years doing your ancestors in. I know that nationalism shouldn't get between someone and their desires ... but it does for me. And what the 'nationalism-thing' might be for men, the 'desirability thing' might be for women.
Lastly, prior to mister and misses Ford jumping the broom (pun totally intended), he'd taken a position on the board of directors for Merrill Lynch. My guess is his political career is over to the extent that his name will ever appear of the ballot. He might hope for an appointment of some kind, but I can't imagine he married that woman thinking that she'd be an asset in a minority-majority district. Or any state that still thinks Jefferson Davis was a really nice guy with lots of good ideas.
[*used for demonstrating the Standard-Issue White Girl]
"but as an adult, you can decide how you want your worldview to be. Being personally affronted because a black man married a non-black woman only makes sense if you feel like only black men find black women attractive."
What daphne said! Expand your worldview - just because a man is "black" doesn't mean he shares your culture. I've been around long enough to know I'd rather be with a similarly educated WhiteAsianHispanicNative man than a brother from the 'hood.
I'd tell you to strangle Tiger first but then Elin get the money. so do it your way but don't forget Tiger.
On the real issue Te-Nehisi Coates ran a parallel in regard to AfricanAmericans and gay marriage. Both issues revolve around the real fear that having been denied the right to marry and having our families destroyed by racism to the point of selling off family members marry someone of another race is a real slap in the face of people whom need love and proof of worth. Marriage is not for the faint of heart but in the end your own race gets it even if it isn't the best for you at that moment in time. Ask every player whom has no more money.
Is Harold Ford Jr.'s mother black? He looks more white than black. And Tiger is only a quarter black. He's also a quarter Thai and was raised Buddhist by his mother. Why would anyone expect him to identify with the black American community? I think identity is what you choose to be. Harold is white because that's what he identifies as. That's why Barack Obama and Kamala Harris are black and not white or Indian, respectively. And if Tiger chooses to identify as mixed (which he is) then we should respect that.
The campaign Harold Ford, Jr ran in Tennessee could just as easily been run by a white person. He does not want to be associated with blacks at all anymore and seems to be want to be thought of as "non-black"
Race is inextricably tied to culture in these United States. So, I'm thinking if Barack Obama had married a white woman, he wouldn't have ever been a state senator in Illinois, let alone US senator, and now President Elect.
I'm thinkin' that no-way-in-hell the majority of black women OR white men would have voted for him.
I'm just sayin'...
For the record, Harold Ford, Jr. is the product of black parents and considers himself to be black -- they all just happen to be light complexioned. His father was a well-known politician/figure in the black community and Harold took on his father's seat in the House of Representatives after he retired.
Hence why some folks were so out of sorts.
Considering his father's relationship to the community as a civil leader advocating "black" interests for Tennesseans, many people saw Ford's marriage to Threkeld as further evidence that he was not "dedicated to the community." It's debatable whether this charge is fair as you can be married to someone outside of your race and still care about black people, but many had issues with Ford that predated this and felt it proved that their concerns were true.
That's specifically why I used him for an example because people went from supporting and defending Ford (even if they hated him) out of respect for his family name to accusing him of being a traitor out right. Nothing about Ford though has really changed.
Other than he got married.
And because of how many feel about interracial marriage in the black community that choice was the difference in reluctant fealty and issuing "fuck yous" to the man. Many people said they wouldn't have voted for him in his senate bid if they had known he would make this choice in spouse. It can be viewed as wildly illogical to say you wouldn't have voted for someone based on their choice in spouse, but these reactions were about emotion, not logic and people took it personal.
Also, interracial issues aren't fully enlightened on either side of the spectrum considering a Republican anti-Ford ad campaign used fears of interracial mixing between black men and white women to attack Ford. As, I could be wrong, but nearly every black politician I know of has had to start out getting elected from a majority black district. The only case I can think of where a black person was elected out of a so-called "white" district was Republican JC Watts and he was a college football hero.
And he is also married to a black woman.
So in all honesty being married to a white woman would have made things difficult for any black person running for national office. What Barack did was a pretty incredible feat which is a testament to his own charisma, intelligence and skill. But no amount of that would have overcome the massive side-eye from numerous South side black voters when he ran for the Illinois state senate.
But now I'm rambling because I like the sound of my own typing, so I'm going to stop.
And somehow the standard is a wee bit different for black women married to white men.
I've heard many a black women, say stuff like "Go on, girl. Take care of business..." upon seeing a black woman with a white man. Of course, the judgement starts in on whether he's (stand-alone) fine, or just 'goodlooking for-a-white-boy' and it almost goes without saying that the man has money.
I have a friend who will watch anything, ANYTHING, with Robert De Niro in it, just because he loves him black women. IMHO, it really is about your own self-esteem and being cherished.
And don't get me started on the whole dark-skin/light-skin thing. Even Whoopi Goldberg made a comment when Michelle Obama was on the view.
I'm just sayin'...
I agree with you, TBS...but mentally I'm thinking, why does it matter to me who Harold Ford marries? I need to get over my damn self. There is no excuse for me carrying around that nonsense.
And yet...I love Michelle O. LOVE. HER.
I also agree with the earlier poster who said that it would be different if it were a black woman politician married to a white man. I think there's a stereotype that women are more thoughtful about who they date, and they don't look for "trophies," so if they hook up with a white guy it's much more meaningful. I don't know if that's true, but that's the sense I get.
isonprize: I realized at a very young age that everything about blackness was political and you could be accused of selling out over pretty much anything.
I, personally, don't get people who either encourage or discourage interracial coupling as if it's the antidote to (or cause of) the serious case of "ISSUES" we as a people have.
Things are simply more complex than that.
But I do recall the ugliness that broke out over the film "Something New," which more than one black man openly blogged about furiously, largely because of that particular "double-standard." I could get into the psychology of black women and white men and what that symbolizes for some people (and what many of us were raised to think of it), but then I'd be hijacking the topic on my own thread.
I will say, I was taught a lot about how black women were viewed and treated by white males historically. So while I'm fine with interracial dating I don't get the "you go gurl" sentiment. I'll cheer for love because love is a wonderful thing to root for. I'm not going to cheer just because it's a white guy. I hope you love that white guy, because if not, that is sad. Just as you shouldn't assume someone is a sell-out because they married a white person, talking about a white man like he's a new Coach purse is incredibly gauche.
christina: Agreed. That's why I wrote that people need to look at what their reaction to Ford is really about and deal with that issue, not waste time attacking Ford. If you have deep seeded insecurities rooted in race (and if you're black and you live in a majority white culture you probably do), then you need to confront and work on that. Ford is merely a distraction to a much more serious problem.
And I could be wrong, but I always thought the double standard was rooted partially out of the fact that it has never been illegal for a white man to do anything to us. I know of no white man who was ever punished for having sex with or fathering children with a black woman. Granted, some of those relationships were not relationships of choice for black women historically, but it's never been the kiss of death that black man/white women pairings were. That doesn't mean there aren't/weren't hurt feelings and recriminations. (Hide your secret, out-of-wedlock black babies, white politicians! It was also really uncool during slavery times if you wanted to move your black mistress from the background to the big house. I do recall some ugliness -- murder, your house getting burned down -- in the few cases when that happened.)
Historically black women who were willing partners in their pairings with white men were seen as sell-outs and were accused of being sexually loose. And the bitching only got worse in some case as many of the women were lighter complexioned, opening up another bag of worms, very similar to the ones being thrown at Harold Ford, Jr.
(Re: You didn't look fully black so your blackness was always in question and now you have married a white man answering that question, you whore.)
Then when you consider that the Loving case which legalized interracial marriage was about a white man married to a black woman should tell that the attitude has always been a little different. Not because black women are special, but because white men are "special," in the sense that a white man wanted to marry who he wanted to marry and the law, dominated by other white men, suddenly gave a shit.
I'd argue that idea of dating white men as an act of "you go gurl" defiance is really an attack against the patriarchy within black culture. (Black men do it so I can too!) Not that you need to date a white man to do that. Our patriarchy is all kinds of confused and in some cases, borderline negligent. I've often said, you don't have to bash a black man to date a white man (and the same goes for black men who date and marry white women). Black people are plenty bashed up already. We're all pre-bashed before we even get out of the womb. There's no need to kick innocent parties in the teeth because you've had one or 12 assholes in your life.
But the reality is that the vast majority of people marry within their own culture. The real issue with black people is marriage period. When black people get married they tend to marry other blacks BUT fewer and fewer black people marry and when you get into areas of higher tax bracket/higher education, as a black woman, sometimes you're lucky if you can even get felt up on a Friday night. And I say this not simply because I'm a client, but the president of the "Black Women With A Degree But Can't Get A Date" club.
And that may also explain the overwhelmingly personal and negative reaction. When you are dead set on marrying the brother of your dreams, yet find yourself trapped in these dismal statistics on black marriage you are destined to have your feelings hurt over and over again.
Greater introspection is needed to toughen the psyche.
And now I've officially hijacked my own thread. Sorry for the long responses!
@TBS: Plenty of white men wound up in insane asylums or outright killed for having relationships with black women. Primarily this happened when he tried to legitimate the relationship either by marrying the woman, or by leaving her or the children money/property in his will.
I guess I've always been more or less a pragmatist. I'm simply not concerned about men who don't belong to me, and who would never be interested in me. Of course, of the two exemplars in question, Mr. Woods is young enough to be my child. Ford, Jr. has a reputation of being something of a hound. And though I think he's one fine mofo, I wouldn't touch him with anything less than a wet suit and a vat of delousing chemicals. Ewww.
@isonprize, I've been stalked for more than eight years by a black man who has beef with the fact that I'm unapologetically married to a white man.
Another black man put my child's picture up on his blog alongside an article telling biracial children that their white parent hated them. (Unless of course, they spouted the racist nonsense he recites daily on asylum he calls a blog.)
I've had at least one black man get up from a table where he sat with his white woman to come over and call me a sell-out.
Bottom line is, it cuts both ways and then some.
Pure and simple this is sexual jealousy and a pathological need to control one another. This compulsion we have to revoke people's 'cullud credentials' for failure to adhere to their definition of blackness, is sick as all get out. I thank God my credentials were revoked aeons ago. I have no desire to redeem them. I avoid such fucknuttery at all costs.
roslyn: Point taken. And yes, there is always a lot of behavior checking that goes on in Blackland, hence my statement about how everything in relation to "blackness" is politicized. People basically stare at you and wait for you to "get out of line," then begin the beat down the minute you are proven to be capable of independent thought. This particular issue is frustrating in itself, as I've been accused of not being black enough on everything from my nerdiness to my skin color (even though I am brown, but depending on who you ask I can apparently be not brown enough) to my taste in music to the way I speak to my hair (both when it was chemically straightened and after I went natural) to not having enough dark skinned male actors on "The Wall of Sexy."
It will drive you crazy if you let it and your tales of people's psycho reaction to your personal life does not surprise me. As I recall, the reaction by the opposite sex to Ford's marriage and the film "Something New" was about the same, IMO. But I don't know how to cure this particular ailment other than to encourage people to practice some healthy self-awareness and come to the realization that everything is not about them.
But that is easier said than done.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again:
If Barack Obama was married to Snowflake, he wouldn't have even gotten to the U.S. Senate, let alone President of the United States.
From the South Side of Chicago?
I don't think so.
As for The Dark Sith,
I have no respect for him, because he hid Snowflake in the basement like the Crazy Uncle. If he was so ' in love', he would have had him on his arm during the campaign. But, he thought he was slicker than grease...he'd win the Senate seat ...THEN reveal her.
That, and he lied on his Grandmama.
If he wants elective office again, he best make it from somewhere other than Tennessee.
Never wanted to strangle Elin Woods.
Wanted to kick Tiger's ass.
The Nanny?
The fucking Nanny?
He could have at least married the White girl who was going to law school, but he married the fucking NANNY.
THAT is what's insulting.
That's what Black men do over and over again.
All she gotta be is WHITE.
Now, I don't know ALL the White men of substance who date inter-racially..
But, the ones I have seen,
let's just say this..
If they are a White man of 'substance'....
Be her Black, Asian OR Latino...
On paper?
She's got her shit together.
He ain't taking the nanny or secretary home to HIS mother.
Okay, y'all have to forgive me for asking, but what is the problem with Tiger Woods marrying a nanny? If I'm not mistaken, the man is a golfer. He's not a Nobel laureate, a member of Congress or even a rocket scientist. The man hits a ball with a stick for a living. It requires talent and dedication, I'm sure, but he's still a golfer. The fact that he's very wealthy doesn't mitigate that fact.
It seems to be very common for well-to-do men to marry less affluent women. JFK, Jr. married a clerk in a Calvin Klein store. When the Donald met Ivana she was a skier, and most famously at all, Prince Charles married, a nanny.
We've got to get over this mindset that wealth and/or fame necessarily equals accomplishment or even intellect. These sports figures and celebrities would most likely be cashiers or nannies themselves were they not skilled in a sport or happen to find fame and fortune in the field of entertainment.
For all the poise, fortitude and intelligence Barack Obama displayed throughout the course of the campaign, there's no way in hell he'd be putting his hand on the bible in a few weeks without Michelle on his arm. Had he shown up in our living rooms, on our television sets, or on the cover of our magazines clutching some Heidi Montag* look-a-like, we'd have dumped him in the same vat of Useless Negro Gumbo we tossed Clarence and Eldrick in moons ago.
LOL
Love your way of putting it, and of course, ICAM.
@roslynholcomb:
That's a good point. Tiger went to Stanford, so you'd hope that he has something going on upstairs, but maybe not.
Maybe Tiger marrying "the nanny" is just proof it's real love. As illogical as I know my feelings are about this subject, I feel extra squicky when children are involved. We're not inside their marriage, and that nanny is the mother of a child I hope is loved and cherished. And that's all I need to know about that.
My only wish is that men of other races would embrace black women the way some black men are quite comfortable dating outside their race. This conversation usually ends up with someone saying "black women, you need to not be waiting around for black men to love and date and marry!" Which is all fine and good, but it's not like white men are lining up around the block to date black women. There are some who do, definitely. But by and large, looking at marriage statistics, people pretty much keep to their own race when it comes to love matches. The only groups that "outmarry" to any extent are black men and Asian women.
Snob, you've summed up the feelings I get when I see black men with white women. I've been in the USAF for more than 18 years and that seems to be all you see. Black men will simply want to kick it with Black women but when it comes time to get married, it's the white women that white men don't want. But you know that slightly sick feeling you get when you see a black man with a white woman, I've seen that look on white women when they see white men with Asian women. I know it's bad to feel good about it but I can't help but feel a little bit of vindication when I see that look on white women's face that asks "WTH??? Am I not feminine enough?"
Back in the day after graduating from basic training, I had a roommate in tech school who happened to be a white woman who was in the process of being disowned by her father because she planned to marry a black man. I was young and tried to keep an open mind about it. One night while watching the Miss America pageant, a black woman won and was crowned by the previous year's winner who was also black (I think her name was Debbie Turner but I'm not sure) Well my roommate got ANGRY about that and asked if crowning black women as Miss America were some kind of trend. Needless to say I was shocked. She left the room and it was the end of our school cycle so we went our serparate ways but it's never left me that white women think they are better than black women and it hurts to know that a lot of black men seem to think so too. :(
Another thing I've observed though is that a lot of the black men married to white women get a trapped look about them after a few babies put a strain on the marriage. I think it occurs to them that white women have as many if not more flaws than black women.
Just passing through and read some of the comments.
I think each has a valid point. It would have been a tad harder for me to vote for Barack if he had married white.
Yes, we all want to feel valued and desired. If you pay attention to any of the media forms, especially commercials, we are the MOST under valued, undesired people on the planet. This distinction seems to especially apply to the African American woman. It seems we are being disappeared from the public eye. Count how many times you see us on TV, (not counting our gyrating body parts in music videos).
What are we going to do about it? Rant and raving about black men with white women isn't going to make a difference. If it could, it would have by now. We've been ranting for at least 70 years now.
We've stayed loyal to black men all this time, maybe we should have the same attitude that they have. What's it to you who I date?
If a GOOD man from another ethnic group, seriously approached us for a relationship or casually approached us for a date, just to spend some time in the pleasure of our company, what would our reaction be? Would we kick him to the curb because he wasn't black, or would we consider the content of his character, drop this unappreciated, unasked for loyalty to black men, and check him out?
Instead of worrying about narrowing the black man's field of opportunity, are we willing to broaden our own?
Sometimes I think we get upset with the inter-racial couples because we believe there are not enough GOOD men to go around. If we confine our scope to just black men, there aren't enough. But, there are MILLIONS of GOOD men on the planet. Let's give ourselves the right to broaden OUR vision; men have always exercised that right for themselves.
What's good for the goose is good for the gander?
I'm with TBS on this one with having 2 minds on the issue. I'm married to an Asian but I still stand in solidarity with my sisters still in the struggle at the bottom of the dating totem pole. The statistics regarding interracial marriage wouldn't be so skewed if only love factored into interracial pairings, but that's not the case. Black women are the least desirable in the dating market and I agree with previous posters that when you see a black woman married to someone outside of her race she has her shit together. I remember hearing inthe beauty shop growing up not to " bring home trash from another race". The women there didn't have a problem with their sons marrying white, just please make sure that she has more to contribute than just her white skin.
I don't know how many times men would make contact with me on match.com and I check their race preferences and they'd have every race checked except for black. It's like they made an exception for me or something, how gracious of them *eyeroll*. I'm almost 30 now but I've been aware of the scary statistics regarding educated black women and marriage since my early 20's. I've also seen too many successful attractive black women get left behind. I made it my second job to get myself out there and find a good man of any race to marry. I wasn't going to wait on serendipidity to send me someone. It's like shopping at TJ Maxx, but eventually I found him.
I think that black women need to take their business where it's appreciated. Black men are great but they're just one of the options to choose from. We have to look out for our own happiness.
I don't have an "issue" with interracial dating, but it always seems suspect, that the majority of successful black men who do marry white women it is always the same type...(blond, thin etc..)
But then what they eat won't make me poo.
I as a black woman have always felt good about myself and when you feel good you usually like to at least see it occasionally reflected back and many times in a black woman's perspective her perception can get skewed, and it is no wonder, most images boast white women as THE specific type of beauty, it is everywhere the grocery magazines, t.v., and just being out and about in the community. Just think of it Black women have been in this country for a long time and it seems like they are practically invisible, it is really quite absurd.
A woman is a woman by any respect but in my opinion instead of black women being revered and looked at as a symbol of femininity, motherhood and strength she is looked at as a diseased-ridden baby mama with no education. Black women have many issues plaguing them, number one with HIV, and a high rate of single parenthood and throw on top the inability to marry... anyone. We have strong women that inspite of their odds are able to obtain college educations and careers... but where are the men standing in line for them? Has anyone noticed when a BW gets her degree she many times continues her single role. When a BM gets his degree he marries a white woman which leads us back to that woeful saying, where are the black men?
I truly believe that the white women in this country are valued more. Everytime a white woman disappears or is a victim of foulplay she is showcased on endlessly on every network. But if a black woman has met foulplay do we hear about her? No. Most people do not expect much from black women and always equate them to being ugly using their natural features as excuses.
I feel that black men have a lot going on but black women also and it makes one wonder why won't both of these groups help each other? The history of why black men and women not connecting to each other is a long and complicated one with much blame on both sides stemming from personal irresponsibility and division this seems to be a subject in that both groups are on the road to losing.
We can package it up and call it love, he has the right to love whomever and so does she but there is an issue here whether anyone wants to recognize it or not. We can talk about how much we could care less about what the other does but the facts pertaining to this issue still remain. Is the black man subliminally buying into their dream and his pick of wife included? To tell you the truth I do not think white people/media thought about that. Well maybe they did because you rarely see a black male leading man paired with a black woman in the movies, (uh... duh subliminal) in fact you will never see that. Think about it another case in point when Sarah Palin came on the scene the first and foremost thing they talked about was how pretty she was and they assumed that she was smart to boot. Michelle Obama on the other hand having been on the campaign trail for a couple years and what is said? She is not an example of a beautiful woman?! So we do not see her as beautiful and she represents what a lot of us look like. The woman rocks she's tall, statuesque has great choices of hairstyles, her personal style period. She is smart and she is who she is and can back it up! And dammit loves her man! That just added to Obama's appeal! Yes, he can do the job but she adds to him tremendously. So... what is the problem with a Black King being with a Black Queen? A lot of this is the mind set. You know I love America but I liken it sometimes a to kind of unwanted roller coaster ride.
namaste and ZooPath - thank you so much. I really appreciate what yall said.
"Is the black man subliminally buying into their dream and his pick of wife included?"
And? What if they are? Unless we have some type of magic decoder ring to deprogram them what can we do about it? Not a damned thing. We can only control our own behavior. People choose what they choose because that's what they want. Now, we can sit at home on Saturday nights picking lint out our navels, or we can get on with it. Either way, these men are with who they want to be with, and they don't give a damn about how we feel about it. So, if they don't care about how we feel, why are we weeping and moaning and gnashing our teeth over them?
roslynholcomb - though i understand and respect your statement. the reason why we care is because is because our men buying into these messages has the ability to lead to the destruction of the black family as a whole. there are a lot of single mothers, but there are also a lot of black men standing by their families and raising their children. and yes, we should also be concerned with the human family as a whole, but if we don't love and heal ourselves, how can we think to spread into that greater field. if black men and women can't come together then what little bit of a history we have managed to claim goes to waste.
@Naila, here's the thing. They're not OUR MEN. We are not THEIR WOMEN. They don't belong to us, and we don't belong to them. No group of human beings belong to another group of human beings.
I'm not talking about healing the greater field. I'm talking about healing ourselves, one person at a time. As long as we walk around with this mindset that we're losing something that belongs to us, or that someone is taking it away we'll continue to feel bereft and rejected. We've been feeling this way for a long time and from where I sit it hasn't benefitted us at all.
I don't believe in continuing to do stuff that doesn't help. And this definitely isn't helping. People are going to be with whom they want to be with. Full stop period. Now, you can choose to make that be about you, or you can choose to get on with it, because when it's all said and done, IT'S NOT ABOUT YOU. Are there black men whose mating/dating choices are a rejection of black women? I'm sure there are. And? Does marinating in those thoughts benefit you? Not from where I sit. So what difference does it make? That's between him and whatever woman he chooses to be with. Keep it moving.
I'm a black woman. The general black female population ends up looking like the business end of a donkey with diarrhea when they go on DEFCON five alert about black men who marry non-black women. All those neurons firing thinking about the dating habits of somebody you know from the media and have never personally met. And making ASSumptions about the dating habits and preferences of these men is an absurd exercise. All of that energy that could be used focusing on yourself. How pitiful. Quit worrying about what other people are doing and make sure your thing is together.
What Daphne said.
I have a good friend who was dating a white man and she went off on a black man we know who was dating a white woman. I said "hello, do you see who you are dating?" Her reply? "It's different." Uhm okay.
As a dark black woman with a natural no brothers were checking for me when I lived in L.A. for ten years. Zero. I never dated interracially until I moved to the West Coast. If I wasn't open to it I wouldn't have dated, period. None of the men where scrubs either.
I understand why some sisters get upset when they see men like Tiger or HR with white women. Some do take it personally.
I'm older now and really I don't care. In my 20s working on the Hill, there was not a single black congressman married to a woman who looked like me or Michelle Obama. So even if the brothers would date a sister I wasn't an option anyway.
Unless I know the brother who is to say he only dated white women? Maybe he did fall in love with that particular person.
Now if someone is like Quincy Jones and NEVER dates within his race, that level of self hatered I don't understand.
I moved to Italy this year. Most of the interracial relationships I see here are Italian men with women of color (black or hispanic). Rarely do I see a black man with an Italian woman.
@roslyn
Here is the thing… our men actually want to be our men… when floating in troubled waters anyway. Where did HFJ go when the blonde playboy bunny ad came out? He was running to every black church open that next Sunday looking for prayer and support. Don’t count on us to lift you up when times are tough but then feel like we can not be life partners, or give you beautiful brown children, or represent you well on your shoulder when the cameras are flashing. To me, that is a portrait of self hatred and we, as black women, are entitled to feel a little annoyed when this picture is playing out over and over again in our lives.
I think your choice to marry a non black man was a great choice for you just like my marrying a biracial man (black/white) was a great choice for me. A life choice this important should not boil down to political moves, what the kids might look like, or what doors are being opened up. What was most important for me was that he was a proud biracial man who is always proud to have this brown woman on his shoulder….. ALWAYS!
As black people and black women, in particular, we need to loose this negative, anti-interracial vibe. It's completely counter to the color blind society the MLK and too many others preached and died for. Who Harold Ford or Tiger Woods marries is no one business but theirs. It's their life.
And speaking as a black woman (married to a black man), the fact is that we must see each other as all of God's children or you don't. You can't sing unity one day and hate the next. It doesn't work that way. The Bible told me so.
Barack Obama is the embodiment of a proud black man of mixed heritage. He should not have his heritage knocked by anyone, but his background should be celebrated. As people of all races, we have more in common than we have differences. We must loose the hate because the reality is that mixed race dating and marriage will continue despite the bitching by a black or white person.
Does Barack's mother deserve this hate? Michelle's brother is married to a white woman. Should we hate on her too.
Wake up black community. It's time to loose the hate.
One more thing. Barack joked recently about being a mutt. The fact is that the African-American community, Hispanic Amerian community and I would argue the Jewish community (BASICALLY EVERYONE) are all mixed up. No one is pure. We are all mutts!
And the orgin of all people is from East Africa. The DNA science has proved this and the Bible confirms this fact. Adam and Eve were black people and everyone else sprung from them. Apparently, God likes diversity. Let's see the big picture and stop the hate.
"Here is the thing… our men actually want to be our men… when floating in troubled waters anyway."
And? This is germane to us how?
I am a black woman whose best friend is a black guy(he has a black girlfriend). He was saying to me how he didnt want me to end up with a white guy and I had to remind him how EVERY single time we go out with friends ONLY white guys appoach me. Where am I going to find this magic kneegrow if he doesn't want me. I want to be wanted. I dont want some kneegrow to be with me as some booby prize because he was trying to earn his 'black' card. So bring on the non-black guy. If he treats me like a priceless Farbage egg then I am with him. This is why Black women love PE Obama. Not just because he married a chocolae sister but because he is IN LOVE with her and he doesnt hide her like a dirty secret and he wants the whole world to see her and the love children they have together.
P.S. This reminds me of Lionel Richie. Notice how we never see the full Black kids he had with his first wife? We only see Nicole Richie and the white wife's kids. DAMN.Personally I think that it isnt our 'hotness' that Black men are rejecting but the product of our wombs. They want that 'good hair and light skin' for their kids and apparently all we can produce are 'nappy headed' babies so they are choosing to pass.
P.P.S I remember the first time I went out with this friend, he couldn't believe the number fo white guys who approached me.... apparently even Black men have bought the hype that no-one wants Black women. This is why I had a party when Halle Berry got her white baby daddy. I am just waiting for Gabrielle Union and Sanaa Lathan to do the same......It gives me a secret childish thrill when the black women that Black men want ditch them...Childish but whatever....
I think there is a competitive streak with men where they want the women that they are with to be seen as a price. Unfortunately black women are not portrayed as anyone's price in society so perhaps going for 'Heidi Montag' is like wanting to have that Lexus that every man is jealous of...I dont know. I think that is why even when Black men are with Black women these women have to be flawless....
I have also had some Black guys tell me that they date white women to spite white guys, getting one back for all those lynched Black men I guess...
Personally I think that Ellin suits Tiger, every rich athlete wants a hot trophy wife and she fits the bill period...What I cant stand are the ugly white women who know that no-one will want them but successful black men, that annoys me. I swear sometimes it looks like there was a sale at 'Get an ugly white wife' mart.
Damn... this is a hot topic.
I'll say that as I get older, this matters to me less. "The black family" may have always been a mythical construct anyway -- if I'm lucky enough to marry and raise a family, just them being good and healthy and happy will be enough for me. I'm going to try not to put any pressure on myself, or my imaginary kids, to uplift the race.
I do get a thrill when I see Michelle and Barack together, but the most important thing to emulate there is the love and respect, not the racial makeup.
I agree that this is work that needs to be done one woman at a time. And I need to work on myself, because like I said earlier, I still get those "twinges." Maybe our loyalty to black men is misplaced: we should be loyal to GOOD men of any race.
Well, Danielle, you sure touched a lot of nerves this time. What a wonderful choice of topic!
My two cents, as an old white guy: I think not only about how much more interracial marriage is happening now than when I was young in the Fifties, but also about how much more willing the average young white woman or man is to seriously consider such a union for her- or himself.
It's been a huge change — how huge, you can't even imagine, if you haven't been around long enough to see it with your own eyes. Books and films can't convey it. And a lot of it has been because the two U.S. cultures, white and black, have grown a lot closer and enjoy and respect each other far, far more than they did in the Fifties.
And I think it's going to go on happening. The more we see interracial marriages, and babies in such marriages, the more it will just seem normal to us all, and the more people will be open to doing it themselves.
You folks who are upset to see a black man marrying a white woman — you've helped me understand your feelings, for which I thank you, and I respect what you're feeling. But you know, your grandkids are going to look at you one day, when you say something like that, and you're going to see in their eyes that they think you're full of it.
Because that's the way things are moving, and you can't stop it from happening, any more than the Ku Klux Klan and the Nation of Islam and all those skinheads could.
So, I dunno — maybe you'll want to shed those feelings before that time comes, because you want your grandkids to respect you.
Me, I'm glad we're learning to love one another. It's a joy to me! I'm only sorry I won't live to see what the world is like when the change is complete.
HF did date black women. He was down for this girl I knew in Memphis. She didn't want the life and he married white.
Black women, I have a secret. You must seek to find a man who treats you like a queen. Anything less is unacceptable. Doesn't matter if his skin is black or white. As black women, we must lose our hang ups and lose the hate.
Black women must learn to love themselves, despite the media portrayal of us and perceived black male rejection. Love yourselves first completely and good will follow.
Peace.
@ Anonymous
Regarding Lionel Ritche's first wife and the black children. His first wife Brenda Ritche could not have kids so they adopted Nicole. Nicole is the product of a groupie and a band-mate of Lionel Ritche's.
They didn't want Nicole and Ritchie and his wife were glad to adopt her as their own because they could not have any children.
Just thought you should know.
Peace.
TBS, thank you for this post. your blog is usually on point, but this is one of the best posts i've read (i'm a new reader). i also want to thank everyone who commented. i agreed with aspects of what everyone was saying. nobody attacked anybody else and everyone expressed their viewpoints well. it's nice to read and participate in things like this with other GROWN, MATURE, and INTELLIGENT people.
Where I live I see black men with white women all the time. These dbr (damaged beyond repair) brothers intentionally try to get my attention so that I can see them with their white women it's bizarre at best. Why do they care what I think?
I once dated a a black man who is very successful, charismatic, and a Yale graduate.
After nearly two years of dating in what I thought was a happy union he dumped my very dark (but I must say very pretty) behind so he could take a Halle Berry look-a-like to the Jack and Jill Ball. LOL
His friends did not think dark was lovely, he told me he didn't agree with them, he lied. I was deeply hurt, I got over it.
I am now happily married to a white man. I met my very handsome, sweet, successful, Ivy league graduate husband two years after that horrible learning experience.
We now have great kids and I actually thank God that the black boyfriend let me go. Because to be honest it was like a HUGE WEIGHT was lifted off of me. Because when I was with him I was always on.
Thinner than usual body, perfectly coiffed hair, always well groomed and polished nails, expensive perfume, classic never trendy cloths, flawless skin, well done make-up, perfect diction.
Everything had to be perfect he said or he would call me on it later. When we went out I had to make sure I was current on important issues so I could be witty and smart. When we ate at restaurants I always ordered something light and delicate as to not seem piggish which was a word he used to describe me when I ordered waffles and ham. "Why not just the waffles?" he later asked me.
However, when he was with his white girlfriend who I later met all she ever had to do was be white. She also met and married someone white and extremely wealthy.
Where is that black boyfriend right now? He is dating a very light bright sister who I am sure is under the same *gotta be perfect* stress I was under when I was with him.
So ladies, like roslynholcomb and Evia at http://www.blackfemaleinterracialmarriage.com/2008/12/living-well-marriage-etc.html
...said these black men do not belong to us and why would I want anyone who does not want me?? HUH??
Get over it and start seeing men in the global village as dating and marrying material otherwise you might end up alone, and bitter waiting for a brother to come around. Your self worth is not and never was wrapped up into what others do or say.
The contract is now null in void!!!
The black woman is god. Any man who doesn't understand that...then tough titties.
If Barack was married to a white woman I would have still voted for him because I think he will make a great president and I didn't agree with McCain's policies. But to be honest I would have voted for him with a sigh. I'm tired of seeing the white women touted as the epitome of beauty and class by black and white men. Most succesful white men do not marry black women who are not professionals. The first black president with a white wife somehow that picture doesn't seem right.
great posts!
this is changing as more interracial couples loom and as the biracial obama becomes more heroic/idyllic etc...
also
the wf is not a liability for black republikkkans, ie j.c. watts,
et al...as they seek white voters primarily...
peace
alicia banks
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Oh who cares, black women are coming up so do not be stressed out about this crap. Just like somebody noted, we are about to have a black First lady and two little black girls as First daughters, people all over the world are going to be looking at black women differently and from a positive perspective, I have hope about this and I see postive things for us in the future. We have come along way as a race and Im proud that black girls are achieving in college but we have a long way to go until everybody does get a chance at a quality education. I understand the need to feel desirable and to be looked at as beautiful but looks aren't everything,lets teach them how to love themselves and feel desirable and confident, lets bulid each other's esteem instead of bringing each other down. How many black women have I heard hate on each other or on other beautiful black successful females? Too many times to remember. Black women, we are coming up and we are being looked at differently by others, now lets look at ourselves differently.
Hey Black Snob, this is my first time to your blog. I like the article and I see your points.
To the others, while I never saw black men as "our men" I still do get that knee jerk reaction when I see them with non-black women, particularly white women. It's not the class of "white" women they choose to marry, it's the well known intra-racist rational behind their usually deliberate choice. This is still very painful or disturbing for many black women, and by understanding I might add. Especially when black men, or black looking men are in the world view, and in this view for younger generations of black children to ponder with. I personally think black women are doing a remarkable job of swallowing this phenomenon. Of course, we are always being taught to be "strong" mules and adapt.... all while other non-black female ethnicities would have been rightfully consoled if it was happening to them instead. Just my opi.
Therefore, no one can not deny the still growing disparity in black male/black female IR dating. This is one of the main reasons why I would urge black women to also consider their IR options. However, not all black women are interested, or able to date outside their race. these women should also be respected for their choice or even their skepticism.
Many women in non-black ethnicities will tell you they rather not date outside their particular race. No one gives them grief about that rightful decision. In fact, we all know they can afford to make such a choice because they don't have the limited compatibility or disparity issues black women face in finding a mate of the same race. Which again brings the obvious reasons why black women would be un-wise to claim black men and refuse to date outside the race. And yet, I still find that obvious reason to also be down right cheerless either way you look at it. Just my two cents. Don't want to be misunderstood or ruffle any ones feathers.
Not going to write a book because I’m honestly sick of debating this...
I don't care so much that HFJ is married to a white woman.
I do care that he tried to pimp us into voting for him by appealing to his black constituency.
Ask the white parents and family members of your white wife to go out and stand on street corners holding your signs and solicit people to vote for you.
Lastly, it bothers me when people try to get on to black women for not accepting interracial dating. Like we should just get over it. These are our feelings. They are valid and should be respected just as much as those who support interracial dating.
Just because you like it doesn’t mean I automatically have to too. But I will respect your opinion as long as you respect mine.
WOW.
Amazing post and equally amazing comments.
Thank you, TBS for such an intricate post. It helps other black people, non-Americans like me get a little understand of what is going on.
I won't pretend. I love that Barack has Michelle, a black woman, and I love that Michelle has Barack.
black love. just love it.
La Incognita,
Thank you for making the point that it's fine and dandy for a WW to exclusively date white men, but if a sista is only wants a brotha, somehow she deserves to be alone because she won't cross the color line. I rarely hear people mention this. It's something that's always pissed me off. As if non-black men are lining up to marry black women. All we have to do is let Tiger and Harold be, cross over, and we'll have a husband and some tan kids. Give me a break.
Oh no, I've always had a crush on Harold Ford...
Michelle's brother is married to a white woman? His children look black. Are they from a first marriage?
"Lastly, it bothers me when people try to get on to black women for not accepting interracial dating. Like we should just get over it. These are our feelings. They are valid and should be respected just as much as those who support interracial dating."
I'd be the last person to be dismissive of someone's feelings. You're right, they're your feelings and their valid. My point is, are they benefitting you? Are they making you feel better? Are they elevating and/or empowering you? If not, would it not be in your best interest to try to rid yourself of them? Hey, maybe not. Wear the hairshirt if you choose, but don't blame it on anyone else but yourself. You've chosen to feel this way.
"...but if a sista is only wants a brotha, somehow she deserves to be alone because she won't cross the color line. I rarely hear people mention this. It's something that's always pissed me off. As if non-black men are lining up to marry black women."
What white women do or don't want is pretty much irrelevant to the conversation. Their blues aren't like ours. After all, we're not white women. I don't really have a helluva lot of interest in what they do or what their choices are. I do know for a fact that there's not a woman on this planet of any race who can't have a good man if she wants one.
Simple mathematics bears this out. There are only 15 million black women on this planet. There are THREE BILLION MEN. These men range in colors all across the rainbow. Your choice. And yes, non-black men are lining up to marry black women and any other woman they can get. Men want attractive women. Fortunately for us, the definition of attractive varies from man to man. But I guarantee you nobody will find you attractive if you don't believe they will.
This is the headgame of the century. We've allowed a bunch of losers to deny our inherent femininity to the point that we don't even believe in it anymore. What a freaking pity.
But as I said. Hey, if weeping, moaning and gnashing your teeth every time you see a black man with a woman of another race is working for you, by all means continue to do it.
On the other hand, if you're ready and willing to deprogram yourself, I'll be more than happy to give you some direction. Trust me, it may well be the most liberating thing you've ever done.
I agree with both Incognita and the anymous at 6:41. I personally don't care who they date.
@ Roslyn: How is it liberating just to date inter-racial. I hate it when people make is sound like oh this will be the best thing in the world for you. I'm glad you are happy with your white husband but it's not for everyone let us be clear on that. And no black women are considered last for inter-racial dating let us get that clear as well. I got more educated black men asking me out along with hispanic but never white men. I'm now engaged to a wonderful black man who I'm going to marry after I finish my residence. He's an attorney I met when I was on my first date with a white man who I was set up with on a blind date threw a friend who was talking about I need to expand my options. He saved me when the white guy got very angry with me just because he found out he wasn't going to get any on the first date. I've been with him ever since. Personally why shouldn't I get what I want which was an educated black man just like my daddy and guest what I got it.
Also Evia a moron she bashes black men left and right.
Please don't put words in my mouth. Never have I said it was liberating to date IR. (In fact, I never told anyone on this thread to date IR. I pointed out that there are billions of men on this planet. Most of them are some variation of brown/black.)
I DID say it's liberating to come to the realization that we don't own black men and they don't own us. Their choices in mates is nothing more than that, their choices. It is not, nor should it be a reflection nor rejection of us. We are separate sentient human beings and time and past time that we started acting like it.
Black men don't owe us anything. It's incumbent upon us to understand this, and that realization is liberating. When you don't expect anything, you're never disappointed.
"And no black women are considered last for inter-racial dating let us get that clear as well."
Perhaps you should limit your statement to your own experiences. I've never been considered last for dating/mating with anyone I've been interested in.
Whether black women as a group are considered last is really not germane. You're not dating/mating as a group. Unless you believe in polyamory you only need one.
I didn't mention Evia in my posts. I think anyone who knows me knows that I think Evia is crazy as all shit.
"Personally why shouldn't I get what I want which was an educated black man just like my daddy and guest what I got it."
Who said you shouldn't get what you want? Certainly not me. If I'm not mistaken this conversation was about black women being hurt and offended by black men who choose women of other races. I've simply said that it's time black women stop wearing the albatross of black male ownership around their neck. I'm not sure how you interpreted my message of empowerment to mean that you shouldn't have whatever it is that you want in a mate. I certainly never said anything of the sort.
Keep waiting for that brother you want he'll be there. Yeah right! 20 black women to one black man who is marriage material. But he knows he is in high demand so he plays with the black women's heart and feelings, sexes her up and leaves her ass for a white girl.
@ Roslyn: Thanks for clarifying yourself Roslyn. I was heated from other things also I referring to the person who was talking about Evia and referring her blog early that wasn't at you. LOL she is crazy as all Shit. As for being hurt by black men going with other women I didn't care when I was single and I sure as hell don't care now.
@ Anonymous: We sound very bitter don't we?
I do now know if Craig Robinson's wife is the mother of those kids. If they are, DAMN< those are some strong genes, because those kids do not look bi-racial in anyway.
@roslyn: There are only 15 million black women on the planet? huh? That makes no sense. Maybe you meant to say in the USA, because when you throw in the Caribbean, South America, AFRICA!!!, not to mention the multitudes in London, Paris, and elsewhere I think you might come up with a few more than that... but, nevertheless, your point is well taken.
Personally, I've never been a "our black men" kinda gal. It sounds weird to me, in fact, but I do get it about the internalized sense of not being valued like I know I should be and projecting that resentment on others.
I know the only person it's been limiting is me and after reading these comments I realize that it's high time for me to show some discipline and check myself when I have knee-jerky bitter responses to the Elins of the world.
Mostly I don't hate on brothers in interracial relationships, but I do mock.
Truth is, I need to be working on my own damn self and getting what I need and not presume to judge the life and motivations some random people (bm and ww) I've never met.
*Sigh*
Why is this still such a big issue?
I have to agree with Roslyn and Daphne. People should be allowed to be with who they so choose.
Is it any better from my perspective as a Black male? Nope!
I see plenty of Black women (the really good ones especially) who prefer to date white males exclusively. It goes both ways. Black men are often limited to what's left... (or we are expected to be limited to that by society).
People with brown skin are not a monolith.... although we are always expected to be. (it's annoying).
Some Black men find that Black women (the bulk of them) don't match what they are looking for... don't share the same world view, the same values, and don't have the same cultural tastes. That's the case for me. Although I don't have a strict racial preference. If I dated... I would date all the colors of the rainbow.... as long as they are what I am looking for. But that doesn't mean I don't have my preferences.
Not that there aren't any good Black women... It's just that looking tends to be more labor intensive.
I don't date (have not for several years- I don't have time for women right now...nor am I even able to date).... but when I do, i'm not going to limit myself. Why should I. Why should anyone?
I actually feel that my race limits me quite a bit unfortunately... and an even bigger problem across the board (regardless of the race of the women) is money/socio-economics.
For men... How much money you earn will dictate who you can date more than anything else. That's a common thread between all women... Black, White, Asian, Hispanic,....etc.
This problem is just as much about socio-economics as it is about race. Only Black males who have reached a certain socio-economic level have the means to really date outside (for quality women anyway). These must be the gentlemen who you all are talking about... from the comments, it seems pretty clear that you aren't talking about Black men who earn less than $50,000 or even $40,000 a year.
When you're a broke graduate student like me, there are really no dating options. This is one of the many reasons why I am unable to date. (another reason is that my standards are probably unrealistic... but I will not just date anyone who's available... she has to fit the template).
My point is... it's actually harder for Black men to date interracially than it is for Black women. I have not dated much (since i'm not an idiot NBA player or drug dealer...or idiot Rap star and don't have a lot of money) I've "dated out" once..and from my experience.... and just from general life experiences through my lens... Black men have to spend a lot of time showing/convincing non-Black women that we won't murder them.... rape them, rob them, steal their property, kidnap them, that we aren't criminals, that we aren't all the monsters that the media has taught the World that we are. And that's just phase 1. Once you pass that hurdle...in the next phase we have to prove that we have reached a certain income level that will make us worthy of dating someone's white, asian, hispanic, biracial, east Indian daughter.. Most of it has to do with winning the approval of their family.... not just the woman you want to date. Often...it's the family that prevents women from dating Black men. Black men are still monsters (I have Rap Culture, Black Culture, the NBA and the NFL, and the media to thank for that).
Black women don't have such a burden. Not even close. In fact... no one has a burden like this. White men, Asian men...have it pretty nice. They have the pick of the litter (even if they are broke...they can rely on the inherent benefit of doubt that society reserves for them). It's why I stay locked in my apartment. Just living/waking up everyday as a Black man is f***ing exhausting...even without all of that nonsense. This is why I have chosen to be dateless most...essentially all of my adult life (although economics have had a lot to do with it). If I chose to do so... I could go to modern day brothels (nightclubs) and date what's left...what the successful men leave me... but I'd be even more f****g miserable. So I'd rather wait until i'm 45 (I know... I might be earning enough money by then... but then i'll be too old).
Try being a Black man for about 30 days. Half of you would probably be considering suicide by week 4.
My advice.... Black women... if you don't find what you're looking for among Black men (and I agree...most Black men probably aren't worth your time), then date out.
I've always wondered why more Black women don't broaden their horizons. There are plenty of White males who want to date you. I work with some of them... We tease one another about our preferences... they find it amusing.
I am with Roslynn, It is high time we viewed oursleves as good women looking for good men and drop all the other tags. This may not be fair, we should get what we want but guess what we as Black people probably know more than most that life isnt fair. Do you want to be loved or do you want to be loved by a black man? Personally I think if enough of us left there would be less competition for those who need a Black man to be happy. We are kind of performing a service...lol...
It's clear Harold Ford Jr. wouldn't win an election held on this blog! He's losing this thing by a Nixon-in-72-style landslide!!
So, not only is it clear IR dating is a hot topic--and almost uniformly disagreed with--it's also electoral suicide.
@Roslyn:
It's clear to me you've made your peace with a Husband that dosen't share your ethnic heritage.
But for the overwhelming majority of female respondents to this post, a shared ethnicity is the price they're willing to pay in the ordeal of looking/waiting for/securing a partner.
Which begs a question--a few questions--asked respectfully, and hopefully answerable as such.
We'd all agree, I think, that love is worth little in a world without values. We all need people in our lives who prize and value our intellect, our beauty and our abilities.
But are cultural connections, a shared ethnic heritage, worth less to you than your marriage?
In effect, is a love you pledge to share for the rest of your life enough to 'balance' the loss of an ethnicity you've carried for the first half of your life?
Aren't African American participants in interracial relationships proudly saying yes to that question?
And lastly, is there anything horrible about wanting both: a loving, life-long relationship with a partner that shares your ethnic make up?
Losing your ethnicity because you marry interracially?! That is ridiculous. Granted, I've never been caught up in being black (I've been caught up in being me), but losing ones ethnicity due to marrying outside of your race is cockamamie.
I think this issue is constantly being debated because blacks seem to be only ones willingly breeding themselves out. Whether whites are doing this in larger numbers or not, they are still the majority. Not only are they the majority, but have generational wealth on multinational levels when we weren't allowed to READ. Their culture dominates on every level, etc. I could go on. Bottom line: the strength of their community is not hurt by a percentage of individuals who seek other. The problem is see now is a segment of black women making "other" THE option as if white men are their saviors. And I notice whenever there is a discussion of a black man/woman, the woman is always uplifted at the expense of the man. Case & point: the Obamas. "She's really running things". When did it become cute amongst black women to castrate our men? We take the "strong black woman" mantra a little too seriously, then wonder why many of us are waking up alone. Then there's black men of a certain socioeconomic level. White (or anything but black) is right. Where do they get this idea they have arrived when they are disconnected from their women? When they are pouring money right back into white communities? Any man who says "I do not want a woman who mirrors my black self" is a man who HATES himself. That self-hatred is not admired by the whites they seek so desperately to appease. We have long been pitied for our lack of pride. Pride stems from the strength of our families, not from slogans and afro picks. Yet we refuse to wake up. I'll also put it another way: Interracial dating is not the key to racial harmony. What you'll often find in the black/white pairing especially is that black really becomes transparent. Notice how those married to whites felt no particular attachment to the idea of black community? It's usually the black participant who thinks along the "colorless" lines, while the white partner is free to be white. It's evident in the new debate over the identities of biracial people, those who gravitate toward white swear it is "unfair to chose", but will put out "but I'm also WHITE" in a nanosecond. Predictable.
Could someone please explain to me why I keep saying that black women need to get over this idea of owning black men, and people keep coming back with questions about interracial dating. I have not encouraged anyone to give up their desire for a black man. If that's what you want, then by all means go for it. My point is, you don't own them and they don't owe you anything.
I think too many black women believe that their loyalty to black men means that those black men should reciprocate in kind. Like some type of contract. Unfortunately, for a contract to exist both sides must agree, and it's apparent to me, that this is so not the case.
"In effect, is a love you pledge to share for the rest of your life enough to 'balance' the loss of an ethnicity you've carried for the first half of your life?"
Since when does marrying someone mean you lose your ethnicity? I was a black woman for 35 years before I married my husband. There's a better than 100% chance that I'll be a black woman until the day I die.
"Aren't African American participants in interracial relationships proudly saying yes to that question?"
Uh no. I'm saying, I met a great guy, who is a great husband, lover and friend. He's also a fabulous husband and he'll be my partner until the day I die.
"And lastly, is there anything horrible about wanting both: a loving, life-long relationship with a partner that shares your ethnic make up?"
If that's what you want, that's what you want. Now please explain to me what that has to do with having beef with the fact that there are black men out there who don't feel the same way?
You have every right to feel whatever you feel. That only becomes a problem when you become upset because someone else made different choices. Wanting to strangle Woods' wife, or voting against HFJr. simply because his wife isn't black. Getting upset every time you see a black man with a woman who isn't black. This is the behavior that is, IMO, detrimental to black women. Deciding that you only want a black partner is your own decision. Deciding that you only want a black partner is fine. Getting upset because there are black men who don't feel the same way is pure fucknuttery.
"Interracial dating is not the key to racial harmony."
And who said it was supposed to be?
"Notice how those married to whites felt no particular attachment to the idea of black community?"
What black community? To my mind a "community" is a place where one feels safe, honored and respected. From what I've observed most black women would have a hard time finding that in most black "communities." For most of us it's a place where we have to fear for our dignity and respect, if not our very lives.
"Where do they get this idea they have arrived when they are disconnected from their women?"
Again with the notion of ownership. How can anyone be free when they are owned by someone else or believe they have ownership of others? Sounds like a recipe for pain, rejection and unnecessary angst to me.
"But are cultural connections, a shared ethnic heritage, worth less to you than your marriage?"
Sorry, I missed this question. Perhaps you can expound on what you mean by shared ethnic heritage and I can answer better. I like and am interested in my ethnic heritage and the history of my family and people. It was not necessary for me, however, that my husband share the same heritage.
For instance, I've dated men from the Caribbean, some from Central America, and more than a few from the continent of Africa. All these men were black or at least some variation of brown, but our ethnic heritage couldn't have been more different. I found dating them far more 'foreign' and had to make more adjustments than I ever did dating a white man. Especially my husband who grew up in the same small town that I did.
I think it's a strange notion to choose our mates based on ethnic heritage, but, of course, that's your choice. For me, I was more interested in the man's values, upbringing and worldview. YMMV, but that's how I saw it.
@ Angry Independent
I don't believe this is a question about economics because many of the black men referred to here that dated out dated and married white women with little or no money or education.
Date who you want, but I do find it annoying when you see black and white women who are friends and the white woman wants ALL the men. It never fails they think they are ENTITLED to first look.
We really do need to get over tying our self worth to outside forces that we have no control over.
PERSONALLY - I'm the shit! My beautifully scented, carmel colored skin will melt in your hands. My gleaming almond shaped, brown eyes can see right through to your soul. A conversation with me will leave you wanting more. White women, black women, asian women, I hold my own. Thank you.
Breeding out? Loss of ethnicity and identity? WTF??? Are you kidding me? Who says that?
I'm not a dog and certainly not trying to figure out the blood quantum of my future kids. If you don't like the way my kids look or the fact that my husband is Native American - go take a long walk off a short cliff for all I care.
Having a mixed heritage makes this country so great. Being from a bi-cultural background illustrates the central theme of our nation. The convergence of people. Since when did we corner the market on being Black? I didn't think I had to prove it; I'm a proud African American woman who instill the ideas and history and culture of my family of my people to my children; I know my husband will do the same.
I don't think IR is liberating because I don't think its a card to be played in a game. If you find someone who is your equal and you love each other - don't you think its okay to commit to them? Should it matter if they are of another color or culture?
I don't sneer at BM who date out and or care. Whatever. I do think we as BW should be raising our stock and individually examining our self worth.
Roselyn I agree with you about certain things, like the ownership issue, this is true we don't technically "own" anybody but infact we share a race. I think that the main frustration with black women is that once black men choose to marry white women they end up bashing their own race: including their mothers, sisters, cousins, nieces etc. It's almost as if they have a grudge against us so they talk crap behinf our backs, this is what I've heard. Many white men who choose to marry black women do not disrespect white women as a result, infact, they are quite curtious and respectful. Anybody who talks crap about their own mother, sisters, nieces, etc. has an issue, bottom line, no way to excuse that kind of behavior. If they want to marry a white woman that is their right, and talking about black women badly is also a right, but it doesn't make it right.
Also Roslyn, I commend you for having a positive attitude about interracial relationships and marriage, I think that people shouldn't be so caught up with another's happiness. I had to include that piece about black men's attitudes towards black women once they are married to the white wife of their choice because it is alarmingly popular and everyone knows that alot of black men diss black women and also they degrade them to, even in the humiliation of other races. I had a classmate who hated, hated, hated black girls and he was...black. He talked loudly and openly about how stupid and loud we were, how ignorant and not up to par, and he did so in front of me and another black girl in a classroom of asians, whites, and latinos. This is much to common and it is hurtful, we were little teenagers and this kind of negativity can shape how you think of yourself even if it is the farthest thing from the truth. His rants have made me bitter towards black men, not because they date white, but because they hate black, black women in particular. I asked myself, how will he treat his birracial daughter when she comes along someday? I hope nothing less than he'd treat her mother. This is just sad and it is very common.
@ Roslyn again,sorry to keep pressing you but can you share one thing with me? Does your husband(who im assuming is white) talk trash about white women? I have a white uncle who is married to my black aunt and NEVER have I heard him refer to a white woman as anything less than a lady. I also have someone in my family who is black and he has a white girlfriend, sadly, this is not true in his case, I have heard hims say negative things against dark-skinned women because he loves light skin. My thing is people should see all colors as equal and beautiful, and even if they don't they do not have to make others feel bad about themselves, that does not change anything. By reading your comments, you have not said anything bad about black men and I commend you for that, it is not necessary, you love who you love and do not care what others think, that is amazing. I wish I had your viewpoint because I know there are alot of black men who do not demean black women, in my family there are black men who I love and look up to also. I have ran into too many black men though, who are just rude, rude, rude, not to me but to black women in general. People say that I am very nice-looking, so Im pretty much accepted by all races, I've dated both a black and white boy, Im not discriminating.
"It's evident in the new debate over the identities of biracial people, those who gravitate toward white swear it is "unfair to chose", but will put out "but I'm also WHITE" in a nanosecond. Predictable."
Yes Anony, the hypocrisy is daunting. I personally think some people in general use the colorblind rhetoric to insult other people's intelligence in order to hide their own racially motivated agendas.
It's also not so hard to figure out why some black/white biracial people shun from being "labeled" with "blackness" exclusively. If it was ever possible for them to be mistakenly “labeled” as “white”, would some of them be so fast to correct you?
With respect to Roslyn and some of the other black women in IR’s, they do make valid points, and at least you could agree to disagree. They are not like some of the other crazies, or one in particular.
Here are a couple of my old blog postings on the subject...
Wrote them last year...
My thoughts on interracial relationships
Interracial couples still face challenges
Anon@9:12am
I was referring to the economic position of the man... It has a lot to do with socio-economic position and upward mobility. Black men especially have to reach a certain level.
The female (black or white) doesn't necessarily have a socio-economic standard to meet. Men aren't looking at that so much...
It especially wouldn't be an issue for Tiger Woods...a multi-millionaire. Why would he care how much money his white wife earned?
Women are so used to thinking this way when judging men (judging based on income) that they assume that men do the same... and this is not necessarily the case. It may be on the list for us... but it's not necessarily at the top.
"@ Roslyn again,sorry to keep pressing you but can you share one thing with me? Does your husband(who im assuming is white) talk trash about white women?"
No, my husband doesn't talk trash about white (or any) group of women. (Except the ladies on the View, he can only handle so much. -lol-)
I would not tolerate a man who did such a thing. I've met white men who did that and I got as far away from them as humanly possible. What we have to understand is that these men are misogynistic as all hell. They hate ALL women. So again, it's not personal. These guys have problems with all women and we should be grateful that they prefer some other group. Indeed we should probably pity them.
I remember having a co-worker once who felt compelled to tell me that her husband chose her because black women don't have nice hair. I think she was trying to get my goat. I was sincerely puzzled and asked, "You mean your marriage is based on...hair???" I can't really take credit for it, but she filed for divorce shortly thereafter.
@ Roslyn
Without remapping the landscape of our respective points, let me say that we should, as clear headed, hard working, God fearing, Snob-loving black folks agree to disagree on the importance of Hard Ford's wife as it pertains to his chance for electoral success in the future. And, just as apparent, the importance of loving someone one might share an ethnicity with. Also, I think we can both agree that black women should be loved at levels that far exceed the numbers that we all know, read and overhear all to well. And lastly, I would hope that nothing I've posted here makes you feel defensive about you own situation. I want to adhere to the edict that I'm certain you heard on your wedding day: What God has joined together, let no Man put asunder.
That said-- that written rather--let me say this: I am a young black man who is absolutely 100% determined to seek, find, court and commit to a black woman. I don't know what the value of that statement is, other than to let readers of this blog know that those of us who aren't cloaked in pathologies aren't all out chasing white girls. For some us, the color of our partners matters.
And one more thing: if you don't think that having the First Lady of the United States--and this tall beauty in particular--isn't going to drastically change the desirability rate for African American women in this country, than I say to you, as a man, respectfully, that you got another thing coming.
Here's a prediction: we're about a year away from some serious, post-Halle, high-profile inter-racial Hollywood dating being splayed out on the covers of those supermarket tabloids.
Now, to address a statement someone made earlier....
"It's evident in the new debate over the identities of biracial people, those who gravitate toward white swear it is "unfair to chose", but will put out "but I'm also WHITE" in a nanosecond. Predictable."
Pass the Cherry wine and let Bishop bless the crackers, 'cause that line right there is the word, the truth and the light!
One can re-brand themselves biracial (or Cablasion) all they want to when the sun's shining. But on a dark night in Jasper Texas, what on God's green earth does that self-defintion have to do with how you're treated by the majority?
And if it worked, if simply recasting yourself as a member of some satellite ethnicity within the African American diaspora--an 'adjunct Negro', if you will--kept you safe from the racist slings and arrows--wouldn't black folks have done that years ago? Aren't West Indian immigrants already doing this now? Does it offer any added insulation from racism?
Did being a second generation Haitian american keep Abner Louima any safer on that terrible night in Brooklyn?
@ Angry Independent:
"Black men have to spend a lot of time showing/convincing non-Black women that we won't murder them.... rape them, rob them, steal their property, kidnap them, that we aren't criminals, that we aren't all the monsters that the media has taught the World that we are. And that's just phase 1. Once you pass that hurdle...in the next phase we have to prove that we have reached a certain income level that will make us worthy of dating someone's white, asian, hispanic, biracial, east Indian daughter.."
My question to you is why would you even go through all this?
This topic is tired now. Let's move on people.
"isn't going to drastically change the desirability rate for African American women in this country, than I say to you, as a man, respectfully, that you got another thing coming."
I don't recall saying otherwise. I know guys of other races who found themselves interested in dating black women after seeing an En Vogue video. Great.
" But on a dark night in Jasper Texas, what on God's green earth does that self-defintion have to do with how you're treated by the majority?"
So we allow ourselves to be defined by ignorant rednecks? Oh yeah, that's brilliant. Sorry, nobody defines me but me. That's not empowering or liberating. What I don't understand is why black people would want folks who are only calling themselves black out of fear. Are we really that desperate and pathetic? Frankly, I think we should be MORE exclusive and stop running around claiming folk who don't want to be claimed.
And for the record, Woods said he coined that term when he was a child. Right now my child wants to be an astronaut, a superhero and a bird. Are you going to be pissed with him if the bird isn't black?
@ Roslyn
You wrote:
"Right now my child wants to be an astronaut, a superhero and a bird. Are you going to be pissed with him if the bird isn't black?"
No.
Of course not.
But it begs a question.
Who explains to him that he's going to face an increased amount of difficulty achieving all those wonderful dreams because of the color of his skin?
You ... or his father?
To all those singing that "Ebony and Ivory" bull....WHATEVER!
Barack had me at MICHELLE. Seriously, if Michelle had been Mindy with blonde hair, he probably would have gotten my primary vote...but I would not have volunteered, would not have donated money, would not have been enthused about his candidacy...so call me shallow, call me irrational...like I care...its the truth and its the truth for the majority of black women, lets not kid ourselves on that one. I love Michelle and even more so, Mama Robinson.....LOVE IT! The pic of Barack holding her hand on election night...priceless! I would like to say though, that I have often said I would have loved to have been able to talk to his grandmother, "Toot"...that was a special woman - and her husband as well. I'm still trying to wrap my head around these two people from KANSAS of all places, in the 60s, taking in their daughter and her child by a Kenyan...not just a black man from Detroit or Atlanta, but KENYA...like my daddy says..those were some special people....but anyway, as I said....Barack had me at Michelle.
Breeding out? Loss of ethnicity and identity? WTF??? Are you kidding me? Who says that?
______
Call it what you want. I tend not to sugar coat my words. My comments were not so much directed to you personally as I am speaking to a larger picture. Make no mistake, you and I both know racial mixing is apart our history as African-Americans. When I say "breed out" I'm talking about the tendency to believe our problems in as individuals (black men/women) will only be solved in union with "other" instead moving to address the underlying issues. We seem to have little desire to hold on to ourselves. The evidence is all around. This is not to suggest SOME would not engage in interracial relationships regardless of these ills. I am not so closed minded as to believe each and every pairing is a result of the need for validation or status. However, I believe it does speak volumes that now even ads are pairing black women with white men because they've been listening to the new "savior" theme amongst our educated sista set. I also believe the lack of color on the arms of our wealthier men (and now even the poor ones are looking for Latina) has been saying something loud. Instead of facing each other face to face, we're running. Just like the AIDS issue. Just like the fatherlessness issue.
My feelings are torn. God knows who we are supposed to love and spend the rest of our lives with before we were even born. So if a black man marries a white woman, this could possibly be a match made in heaven, literally.
But then I witness discrimination against the black female, especially those of darker complexion, from black men who are my cousins. What the Hell?!?
I admit that I cheer internally when I see a black woman with a white man. In high school the black guys, especially the popular ones, only dated white girls no matter how pretty or ugly they were.
Question: Why is it that a white woman can look like Roseann and be good enough but the black woman has to look like Beyonce? Why must the black woman be flawless?
My cousin married a white woman. He's college educated.....she admitted that she barely graduated from high school. I know for a fact that my cousin just married her because she's white. He's admitted that "black women have too much attitude." All the while, he constantly mentally abuses her by talking down to her and telling her she needs to lose weight. Her response: nothing.
Most black men are intimidated by strong black females and they want to be number one. Well to hell with those men who can not accept black women because we don't take their crap.
So I'm reading a lot of these comments and I'm a little shocked about the amount of people who have said they know black men that have dated white women or any type of white woman just because they are white. I'm not naive and know that this does exist but I did not know as much as people are saying.
I am a black dude who has no problem with dating outside of his race. I have dated white women before, Puerto Rican you name it. I found women in general beautiful no matter the color of thier skin. I have never not been attracted to black women, but I think in my case it may be the environment I have always been in. I grew up mostly around white people, went to school, college with mostly whites and some of my best friends are white. Of course when you hang out with this many white people you're going to start talking to the white girls or vice versa, and that is what has really happened to me. I have never really had access to an overabundance of black women. Maybe that's my fault who knows, but that's my story and I'm pretty comfortable with that because I know who I am and the color of my skin and would not change that for the world. I feel that black women are amazing and sexy and would be with one in a heartbeat if she was cool and we were feeling each other not just because she is black.
And for those who are shocked when they date white women and find out that they have issues and dont' have the magic clit that some people are programmed into believing, they are ignorant. This may sound sexist but a lot of women have issues period. Rather it's societel, personal or whatnot black, white, asian whatever they are gonna have some sort of issue/insecurity you may have to deal with.
One last thing on this extraordinary long post...I sometimes think that black women do not find me attractive or are not drawn to me for whatever reason. I'm a good looking guy, well educated bachelors and master's degree, decent job would treat any woman like a queen, yet I get all this attention from white women. I had a black friend of mine say to me that I was every white girls fantasy I guess beacuse I was the "safe" black guy for a white girl to bring home to mommmy and daddy. I guess my question here is to the black women who are looking for a good black man, what attracts you to them or what are you looking for because I gurantee I got it all here, yet white women feel me more often then black women. And to the post about black man being intimidated by strong black females...not the case here that's sexy
TYK27,
I'd like to see your picture. Are you more like Carlton from The Fresh Prince? If that's you I could understand white women being drawn to you. My brother is like that, basically he is a white guy in black skin.
Anonymous, I put a pic up...if that's the case about your brother that's kind of messed up that people have that stereotype that you have to act a certain way, dress and talk a certain way if your black. If you dont your considered white. I would like to think that we are passed that racism within our race but we are not. The friend that said I was a white girls fantasy also made a comment that I talk like a white guy, what's talking like a white guy? Because I talk like I have sense half of the time, I'm acting white? Me and her fought for over a year about that, haha, but the stereotypes that live within the black community placed on ourselves is maddenning sometimes and we all do it to a certain extent, it's a shame because it holds us back...
TYK27,
Your a handsome guy. What is your phone number?
LOL, how bout my email...jenkinst8019@gmail.com
TYK27 and anonymous: Oh no! Folks are not up in here "networking" up in the Harold Ford Jr./Michelle Obama/Interracial dating thread! LOL! I'm glad I could be of service ... and 112 comments! Man, people. Is it that raw?
That is all.
Hook ups on the blog...I love it!
It must absolutely suck to live your life being defined by others. Ugh.
Anonymous @ 8:28 -
The issues you raise need to be raised within the community and at home.
This is similar to the talented 10th leaving the Black community at the first chance of integration and social mobility. Do we blame these folks for seeking something that was right for them and their families? No.
Yeah we need to have more talking and more understanding but how do we do that? Its easy to sit on the sidelines and bitch but I don't follow or cooperate until Leadership is shown and attitude shifts are present.
Suggestion
Snob you need to have a "single men of color" issue like the annual 50 single men - there are some nice looking guys and it would be a service to the single ladies to bring our community together.
TYK27 and Nate Jones could lead off.
Not that anyone cares, but I just read that Craig Robinson's children are from a first marriage.
Skywalker...
The damage is done. This has been a problem since the beginning of time. We could have all of the community forums we want on this issue and we will still be in blogs talking the same talk and black men walking the same walk. As long as there are outside forces that put it in everyone's head that the white woman is superior to all women, things will never change.
Solution? There is no solution. Discrimination is here to stay...even if it's within the same race. And people sitting on the sidelines bitching will still continue because of this.
TYK27, I didn't say ALL black men are intimated, I said SOME. Maybe you're not and that's a great thing, but there are men like my cousins who are intimidated by black women who hold their own ground.
Anon @ 10:40 am
Since you don't have hope why you don't you just stay on the sidelines bitch all you want and watch some change happen. Not all BM are bad, not all BM are in IRs and not all those that are don't think poorly on BW or the Black community.
YOU have issues that YOU need to resolve. Its easy to hate but its hard to love and understand. Its easy to have that "world's over, its bad" attitude that keeps communities in the same place for years/decades/generations. Try changing your view for a sec. Try seeing it for what it could and should be and not for what it is.
Yeah, we need to question established rules and what not but that gets us thinking asking ourselves how to move forward. Hate/Bitch all you want but unless you got something to contribute you can wave as I and many who want to move forward through unification of the internal and external communities pass you by.
I know I should leave this alone but I have only one question to ask....
The one excuse I hear black men use for dating out is that where they were everyone was white....I CALL BULL.If sistas are enrolling in college at a rate of 3:1, it stands to reason that wherever you are there are more Black women there than there are Black men even when Black people are in the minority, right?
This is a pile of crap in my opinion. I went to an elite liberal arts college on the East Coast, where there were definitely more Black women than Black men, even though Black people as a whole made up just 10% of the population. Even then, the guys dated white and the girls cried. This was not the hood where all the Black girls were rolling their necks and snapping their fingers. This was 'Jack and Jill'-ville .....My thing is do whatever you want but dont lie to me or to yourself....
Read about the Brown University 'Wall of Shame' started by a sista to chronicle all the black guys that were dating white girls....
Again, I dont care, I am after all dating a white guy but I am honest with myself about why. I want to meet a Black guy who will tell me to my face, I date white chicks because I like white chicks, I think they are prettier, I want my kids to have good hair and light skin,and I want other black men to look at me and envy me my white wife...heck even I like pink nipples is a better excuse than this shitty 'woe is me' story of I was the only Black person at my school. We all went to that school and I am not buying it.
Read this at Evia's Blog tought it as interesting. I don't think she is crazy I think she makes sense. She also claims to be happily married.
To Choose or Not to Choose an AA man--
When I was younger and dated the “typical” AA man, I had choices among AA men and other men. I had the choice to choose an AA man. I discovered that a typical AA men either wasn’t willing to or couldn’t give me what I needed, so this is why I left AA men alone. I knew that if I got into a relationship with one of them, he would know I was always on the verge of escaping and this would be dangerous for me. I wasn't about to allow him to work out his frustrations on me!! Oh NO. I could have easily ended up on the other end of his fist—as those wealthy black women in PG county, Maryland have experienced. Please go to my PONDERING section and read the articles there that Felicia has found about what’s going on in some of those gilded cages. I don’t know whether that’s been covered on Oprah or by any high profile media person. SMH
I wasn’t willing to even "try" to come up with a brand new vetting system to vet an AA man—or cut him any slack, which is what many AA women are pressured to do. That would have been an exercise in "trial and error" and my life and that of my children would have been at stake. Remember that cutting a man slack means that the woman is going to have to take up the slack. If she starts out doing that, he will expect her to continue and when she complains, this is usually when her face meets his fist.
BW: There is ONE standard way of evaluating ALL men in world and AA men are no exception—that is, if a survival and thriving oriented woman is going to look out for her and her children’s interests. All women in all cultures and societies in the world use this standard rule that starts with a question.
Here is the MAIN question you should be able to answer in a positive way if you are to continue spending romantic time with ANY man: How well can he provide and protect me and any children we might have and is he “SHOWING” me in small and other ways **from the start** that he’s willing to do that? If you have to hem and haw about this answer and come up with a long explanation about why he can’t do that, or maybe this or that, then you are wasting your time and you should prepare yourself and your children (if there are any) for much unnecessary suffering.
However, AA women are pressured in a variety of ways to NOT use that standard vetting system when it comes to AA men, and this is what causes so much confusion and disaster. This often leaves many individual bw to have to come up with their own, individual, untested vetting system and this is why many young black women are left holding the “evidence” when he abandons her and the children.
Okay, this is where I part company with some of the other bw empowerment bloggers, but of course, we’re not going to agree on every point since we aren’t the same person--unless I'm schizophrenic and off my meds. LOL!
I don’t think and I will NEVER think or believe one iota that a female is any more responsible than a male for any children that might come from their sexual union. I won’t ever support any position that doesn’t require them BOTH to face equivalent consequences for their abandonment or mistreatment of their children. I’m never going to blame the woman MORE for having a womb or her social predicament of being left with children because she doesn’t have to remain in that social predicament. The woman could ALSO abandon the children after birth.
Have y’all noticed the irony of this situation? Since the babymama doesn’t abort or abandon the children, she is left holding the “evidence” and thus she gets the full force of the penalty for a “crime” that both he and she equally committed. LOL! Since the babydaddy has shed the evidence, he escapes the lion’s share of the blame—at least in the eyes of most AAs. The babymama is sentenced to hard time for life and much denigration from AAs and a host of lost opportunities simply because she kept possession of the evidence. I think we’d better think long and hard about this situation because a female can also shed ALL of the evidence, and more of them are doing it.
Only among AAs is the AA male not held equally responsible for his children or to the same standard as other males for being providers and protectors of women and children.
Other groups of males still have standards and do everything in their power to extinguish this type of egregious irresponsibility among their own males to the point of using severe penalties. The MEN among them do that. They at least, put into place various measures to send the message that they won’t tolerate it. I know for a fact that white males and Nigerian male babydaddies are held in low regard by most other males among them, whereas many times, AA males shrug, high-five each other and blame the mothers of their children for being stupid hoochies and such and face no social penalties from each other AT ALL.
This is why many other groups consider AA males worth less.
Anyway, when I was a young woman, I wanted a regular, "normal" Quality man for a mate--one who could be held to a similar standard as any other "normal" man in the world, without any expectation for me to “cut him slack” So I opted early in my social life away from AA men. I would advise other AA women who want to avoid having to set up a brand new 'trial and error' vettting system and the rest of the whole nine to do the same.
As more and more bw escape, it'll be worse than Armageddon for a LOT of these parasites who view black women as their cushion, their insurance policy, their cash crop, their security blankie, their buffer from the rigors of real life, their safety net, their booty for cheap or free sperm depositories, their meal ticket, their loyal family slaves, etc.
When you think about the enormous lack of reciprocity, the sexual use and abuse of bw's bodies, and the sheer volume of physical and emotional brutality involved, the male abandonment of children, etc. in a lot of the AA intraracial male-female relationships or interactions, it's actually a REPEAT of the ole plantation system, except that AA women have become the NEW slaves--to be used at will by bm and perpetually made to feel that they are less than and stupid, that no other type of man could possibly want them because they're too ugly and dark, with bad attitudes, and that we can't make it anywhere else but in the bc. Isn't that the same spiel the white massas taught our captured ancestors to keep them on the plantation? It's a REPEAT of the same program. There's nothing new or creative here. And since it's a repeat, AA women ought to be able to predict and sidestep the tactics being used now and those that will be employed in the future to keep us in “our place.”
Oops that was a little too long, sorry.
anonymous 5:32 p.m.: This whole sucker is long. Don't worry about it.
@ Snob: Ain't that the truth! I have nothing to say just that I honestly don't give a damn who people marry. I just know I have a preference for black, hispanic, Middle Eastern, and Asian men. A white guy would really have to stand out for me to be interested because I prefer more ethnic looks.
Skywalker..
I advise you to read more carefully. I never said ALL black men are bad. I never said ALL black men didn't care about their community. But there are SOME, let me repeat, SOME who don't prefer black women because of the color of their skin and the stereotype of black women and attitudes.
I'm sorry if a lot of people don't look through rose colored glasses like you, but discrimination is here to stay. Yes we've come a long way, but we still haven't reached the point of not completely judging people by the color of their skin. Yes we have a black president, but there are still people who want him dead because of the color of his skin. I NEVER said that people couldn't change but I trully believe the only place where we will be free from discrimination is heaven. That's why God made heaven so we would have something to look forward to from the hurt and pain and yes discrimination we have here on earth. Fifty years, 100 years, 1,000 years from now the topic of interracial dating and marriage will still be a hot topic no matter how much CHANGE we as a people accomplish.
You say you're not sitting on the "sidelines", so what exactly are you doing to make change on this topic? Inquiring minds would like to know.
first: wow, that a lot of comments.
But I think I may have an inkling of what it feels like. I am white, but i lived in japan for a year. I am also brunette with dark eyes. So, while there I never got flirted with once. Not even a second glance. All the western guys wanted to date the Japanese girls , and all the Japanese guys wanted to date a blonde or redhead. I felt so dejected and unattractive, and if that is how you ladies feel, you have every right to be angry. No woman should feel so alienated by their own culture.
but then again, I did make that >>> face the whole time....
In response to one of the many anonymous posters or the one who said a black man is lying to himself and other BW by saying he dosen't date BW because of the lack of them in his environment, first of all you do not know me or others who may stake that claim lifes story. I currently work in a profession that caters to golf, guess what not a lot of black women there...do i like white girls, hell yea, do I like black girls hell yea, it really does not matter to me...nobody's lying to anyone about why they date outside of there race at least in my case...
And yea you need to have a single man of color feature black snob featuring me and others, lol
See what you've started Snob?
I am an AA woman dating a white man (been together 5 years). I read this article and immediately began to think, am I jeopardizing my bf's future simply because I am black? I have also been subject to all sorts of "Oreo" commentary from black men and women alike. So what if I have currently have a preference for MY white man? (My first bf was a black African, my second was Honduran, by the way). I think I would still be dating my current boyfriend if he were any other race/ethnicity, because of his character.
In my professional life, I consistently work WITH the black community to advance ourselves, I EDUCATE other white people (including my bf) about positive AND negative aspects of AA/Caribbean culture, and BREAK the stereotypes that we keep on perpetuating by isolating and dividing ourselves. I think it is simply stupid for people to forclose opportunities to fall in love because they are concerned about their image, credibility, career, etc. Shoot, I am in a white-dominated profession, and dating a white man is certainly not "helping" me to advance myself. It is up to ME.
Obama's "no drama" policy could have been construed as an "anti-black" sentiment since we are very much associated with drama in all its forms (baby mama drama, gang drama, political drama, etc.). But no, Obama was elected, and he was elected by a WHITE friggin majority. So why do we feel so much "responsibility" for his success? He did it his damn self, by being the dignified, intelligent, and genuine person he is. He does not reject his white heritage, and he does not reject his African roots. What should that say to us? Self-dejection and inordinate blame on the "other" will get you nowhere.
We put up our own barriers. My father always said to me, "There always has to be a cause of death, but our people [we are Caribbean] always dramatize it by inventing some voodoo or curse. Why can't we just die of "natural causes" or "old age"? This is what has happened to politics. In our rush to Monday-morning quarterback, we blame Harold Ford's "apparent" rejection of the black community for his failures as a person. Can't he just have NOT been successful? Can there NOT be a "Bradley effect"?
I am also from Florida. So yeah, Jeb Bush's Latina wife helped him garner the vote, but basically ONLY in Southern Florida. But wait, its Cubans, who are primarily anti-Democrat because of their supposed plans to open up trade to Cuba. It's still a red state, people (except this year :-P).
Well, as a high school dropout of Mexican (actually Californio but no one knows about US) ancestry I must beg you to have some pity on those women who aren't Rhodes Scholars, or who don't have advanced degrees from the ivy league.
We aren't all animals, and some of our beloved grandmothers were nannies at one time or another. We may be unschooled but we can be quite charming and loving people. Maybe Tiger saw THAT in Elin.
It's best not to try to dismiss people from the roles of deserving humanity, either on the basis of melanin production OR schooling.
My grandpa only graduated high school and was the dearest man in the world and made my life a joy so it's awfully hard to accept such a random and sweeping dismissal of the worthiness of people based upon something that is so removed from their true worth and goodness.
That said, I also have felt, and quite strongly, the implication that I was not the attrractive or desired thing in this society.
Few things hurt so much or cause so much damage to ones soul and sense of self worth.
First and foremost: This thing still going on!!!
@brownybelle: Wow five years is a long time you guys planning on getting married anytime soon.
And Queenie, you are right about the whole educated/non-educated division within minority communities. I mean, black people still flip out when people move out of the neighborhood to be "closer to whitey." And a lot of educated black people make a ridiculous effort to stay away from the hood. Obama has found a happy medium - he did his community organizing, and learned the value of grassroots organizing. His success depended on the collaboration of PhDs, high school dropouts, grandmothers, college students, nannies, and everyone in between. Street smarts and common sense does not come from school. Politics in America is definitely not only for the elitely educated. And even those who have the right names on their resume can be as dumb as a stump (i.e. GW Bush). Bravo, Queenie.
Haha at RainaHavock...we talk about it all the time. I just cannot get married to someone when both of us have massive school debts to pay. Can anyone get me a job in DC?
Hey Ya'll are we done with this thread yet?
To anon@ at whatever
Chill - I do my part(mentoring my siblings, being involved with my Church parish which is 100% non white non Black kids). The point I'm making is we get no where and I mean NO where by pointing fingers. Every difference counts. I show people that I have strong relationship with my husband, my family and friends, and my faith. We should encouraging models within our community and externally. That's what my parents taught me. That's the way I'm going to live.
Oh I forgot to mention Native American men in my little clip carry on. :)
gotta love the NAs - colorful, get the jokes, have some empathy for the culture, just as divided as AAs.....I'm loving it.
Queenie,
Girl that kitty with the gun is strange baby. But you know what I think I like your style girl. What is with the sniper kitty cat?
Thank you Anonymous!
That killer kitten has been all over the web. Exactly what it's supposed to symbolize and who originally created itare probably both lost in the mists of online history. I like it because I'm fond of the idea of something as traditionally defenceless as a kitten suddenly deciding to fight back.
And I'm a huge sucker for cats. The keep you warm in the winter, and provide a source of meat when the great famine comes (just joking)
I know pretty everybody has already added their input, but I'm adding mine because it's not just adults and politicians doing it, it's boys too.
Of course it should be your choice of who you marry, but it does bother me and my other black friends when we see almost the majority of all the black boys at our school chasing after white girls. There's a certain, "well what's wrong with chocolate girls?" aspect to it that even my mom said she went through in her day. It probably wouldn't bother me as much if it didn't look like the only girls they chased after were white. But that's definitely the way it looks. And it bothers me.
In respect to Barack marrying Michelle, I shamelessly admit it makes me giddy to see real black love on such a national level. I like that Obama married a real chocolate girl from the Southside of Chicago. If he would've married a white woman, I wouldn't have had any problem with it. I just wouldn't be as inspired I guess. There's just something about it.
Artchess
I feel what you're saying. When I was in school all of the black guys dated the white girls, no matter how ugly they were. Another thing I noticed is the white girls practically threw themselves on the black guys. This is the main reason why black guys love them some white girls because they will do ANYTHING, and I mean anything to get the black guy.
Don't buy into the hype of "black girls aren't into me" or the infamous excuse of "I'm surrounded by more white girls than black". No the real reason is that society has put into everyone's head that white girls are the cream of the crop and black guys believe it's true.
"Don't buy into the hype of "black girls aren't into me" or the infamous excuse of "I'm surrounded by more white girls than black."
I'm really sorry to say but it's not hype. Maybe that's an excuse about there being a lack of black women in my environment, but can't you say the same thing about black women who are high up in the corporate world and refuse to date IR but have slim pickings of black guys in their environment? It can go both ways if you want to throw that hype or BS card on black guys that say that. And why am I the only dude on here responding to posts??
I do agree that we are programmed from the media and the rest of the world that white girls are the ultimate prize. It's getting a little better but definitely a long way to go, but please do not say somebody is not telling the truth about why they date outside of their race. In my experience I am not looking for the girl that's the ultimate prize because of the color of her skin.
Anonymous:
Exactly! The white girls are all over them and it annoys the crap out of me. The black boys just take it all in too.
Don't buy into the hype of "black girls aren't into me" or the infamous excuse of "I'm surrounded by more white girls than black". No the real reason is that society has put into everyone's head that white girls are the cream of the crop and black guys believe it's true.
yeah ia. The boys at my school always use the excuse that all the black girls are "ghetto". While it's true that you do have your chosen girls who act like they don't have any sense, they are plenty more that do. I hate bs like that.
TYK27:
I guess I can agree with you a little bit. But some people do use that as an excuse and do lie about it. Sometimes they're plenty of black women around you, and they chase after white women anyway. So if you like white women, just say so.
tiger woods is more asian than black, so would anyone have a big issue if he married an asian woman?
How is Tiger Woods more asian than black? He's half and half. And as far as the bs he gives of "my dad is half indian and black", well ALL black people have indian in them. Actually, no one race is pure anything. We all have different mixtures of blood in us.
In my opinion, dating and marrying interracially is okay IF the people in the relationship really care about each other. My problem is when people use excuses on why they only date a certain race other than their own race.
WOW. I have heard so many people voice this sentiment about Barack Obama's wife Michelle. Granted, if he's happy with her I'm all for it but throughout this campaign I have felt like perhaps I am not proud enough for some reason. All the black women I know; especially those who are older are just enamored by this woman. They call her beautiful. I think she's attractive enough; but I wouldn't call her beautiful. I don't think she has a great sense of style and I have repeatedly wished Oprah would hook her up with her personal hairstylist because I hate the stuffy way she wears her hair.
Don't get me wrong. She is obviously intelligent and I am glad she and Barack are happy and seem to have a great bond and happy family--but my vote for him had nothing to do with her. Now, I don't think Barack would have been elected without her BUT she personally didn't do anything for me or change how I felt about him. Nor has she really made me feel any better (or worse) about myself as a black woman. Perhaps its because I'm cynical. It seems like black people (and some white people )are just glad she's not white and therefore transferring all these positive attributes onto her in addition to those she already posesses. Almost to the point of putting her on a pedestal she can't possibly stay on. While understandable; I worry that she like her husband will crumble under all these added expectations that come with the mere color of their skin.
Okay I also grew up in majority white schools most of my life; but what I found is that typically black males don't suffer in the dating game the way black women do which definitely contributes to the hard feelings. A black boy, especially if he's a jock or Will Smith type will be accosted by the white girls even if he's not chasing them. My mom used to have to chase white girls off our lawn and take the phone off the hook because they were so aggressive about pursuing my older brother who is a dead ringer for Rick Fox of the Lakers.
BUT Even the most gorgeous black girl (Halle Berry talks about this in talking about her high school days) will not be chased in the same way by the white boys in the very same environment. I was always told how "gorgeous" I was "for a black girl" but those white boys were not taking me to the prom! They were not calling the house or showing up uninvited the way those white girls would for my brother.
Likewise, when I switched to a school with more black guys I found that only a small subset of black girls were desired. I was a part of that group admittedly-- and that wasthe black girls those who were most similar to white girls in terms of figure, length of hair and other features --they might be considered BUT by and large no matter what their background (two parents or one; rich or poor) the black boys put most of their efforts into chasing after the white girls. Of course there was an undercurrent of sexual availability that obviously results in erroneous stereotypes but that's a factor too. Typically most black girls aren't dating until 16 or 17--white girls are at 13 or 14 in a lot of cases--and the logic followed that those girls would be easier and more willing to do sexual things because they are in "the game" earlier than black girls. At least in a suburban environment where black parents tend to overprotect.
Now that I am older I am approached by white men far more often than black men. I always had a preference for black men but what I would often find is that black men were very wrapped up in "my outer shell". That is they seemed to put a high value on the texture of my hair and lighter color of my skin--many expressing how it would be great if I was even lighter. Yes, really, college educated black men. Whereas when I date black guy I tend to know he's really attracted to and likes the inner ME becaue his culture puts no premium on those things and frankly he is likely to be getting flack for being with more than props.
OOPS that last line should refer to when I date a white I tend to know he's really attracted to and likes the inner ME becaue his culture puts no premium on those things and frankly he is likely to be getting flack for being with more than props.
okay I just keep messing that last line up every time I try to correct it. Bottom line, to a white guy, I'm dark skinned because I am not white, so therefore the fact that I am lighter than some other black woman or my hair is less kinky really doesn't seem to get him jazzed the way it does a black man so I have little worry that he's dating me for that reason alone. In fact I figure he must be pretty open minded when he is just as bombarded with the positive images of white woman and negative images of black women as black men are.
However; I am often asked by black men and other black women if they think my current boyfriend-- who is successful and attractive and white--would be dating me if I were not, in their words, "black barbie". They see me physically as being a white woman, painted brown and believe most white men see me the same way--negating the idea that they are more open minded about black women in general. Who knows?
Wow c.n.edaw,
I'd like to see what a black barbie namely you look like. Also so you don't fine Mrs. Obama beautiful? Okay.
I don't think they are just talking about her looks. Her education, good upbringing, community service and the whole lot go into play when they describe this woman. As as far as her hairstyle, how would you have her wear her tresses? Remember she has to look nice but not fly. She represents so much more than that.
Peace
his dad is 1/4 asian, 1/2 black and 1/4 indian, and his mom is 3/4 asian and 1/4 white. do the math. putting it all together, he's half asian and quarter black. so again, would him marrying an asian woman be an issue?
c.n. edaw:
i think those people who ask you those questions need to worry about why they're single and no one wants them. eff what they see you as, and worry about what your man sees you as. it kills me when people critique others relationship when they can't do good for themselves.
@c.n.edaw: I have to disagree that MO isn't a beautiful woman. I saw her closeupinperson at a rally, and did a double take. She wears her hair like I used to wear mine, flat ironed, so whatever.
@Queenie: I don't think we're dogging anyone for their education or lack of, but like Rikyrah said hundreds of posts ago, it's hard to ignore that for some of these men, all she gotta be is WHITE.
I have an uncle who's only married white women. I work in an office that has a lot of young, unmarried, white women with children. All by black men with multiple children by multiple white women, but this probably says something about the women, too. It's at the library when a group of black girls comes in and sees the black boys with the white girls. The girls all wear the same uniform clothes, have the same hairstyles, go to the same schools, andl live in the same neighborhoods, but the boys are with the white girls.
@c.n. edaw
I'm sure you would consider Michelle Obama beautiful if she looked more like you huh! Light skinned black woman. Sounds like you are buying the hype you pretend to be against.
All of this talk makes me want to throw up. Maybe it's my medication. Peace, light and happiness always
Stop scratching the surface ladies!
There was a law making interracial marriage illegal- loving vs. Virginia, look it up!
Men don’t like ALPHA FEMALES…period
POWER BIT*HES DON’T GET MARRIED!
This is way deeper than media influence and different ethnicities perspectives of the “American dream”
i love strong, educated, opinionated, and ambitious women. i butt heads with them consistently, but i enjoy a woman who challenges me.
Draven you have been away I hope all is well.
Peace
I was very impressed with how well written your blog is and some of the responses above. Thank you for writing this. My sister, who is white, bless her is extremely attracted to black men, but no relationship gets serious, because they are scared of their families reaction. She also tends to get a lot of threats from her current man's exes. It saddens me that we judge so quickly, and in my opinion so incorrectly. I was very hopeful, after reading your blog and some of the comments, that with time and the right influences, the intensity of these judgements will wane.
Thank you again.
I'm doing fine, Christine. Thanks for asking. I have good doctors and good drugs. Peace and light always
To anoymous. I don't consider myself a black barbie--other people have called me that. There's certainly a difference.
So direct your veiled insult to people describing me and not at me.
Secondly,when I have heard people commenting that Michelle Obama is beautiful, they are indeed talking about her looks..not all the other stuff you are talking about. I've heard stunning, gorgeous, etc. It's just my opinion, of course, but I just think she's an attractive accomplished woman. Period.
All those things you ae mention MAY indeed be why people describe her as such, but my personal opinion is that they feel the need to play up her looks BECAUSE she is black and not light skinned. They feel the need to advance the idea that a dark skinned black woman can be gorgeous whether she is or not. Which I suppose is fine, since so much is done to advance the notion of the opposite--however I think it would be more productive if it were true. Again, just my opinion. She's attractive, even pretty to some; but she's no Naomi Campbell. That's all I'm saying. I don't think most people are getting that deep when they comment on her looks...but those who are prove my point to a degree. They can't just say she's a smart attractive black woman. They feel the need to add on adjective after adjective to the extreme.
As for her hair. I have never liked that stiff bob (with the turned up ends in some cases) style that she and Condoleeza Rice before here sported. One, because I think that style is aging and dates you IF it's not an updated bob style that MOVES! Not stiff and over stylized.
And to me Oprah is a perfect example of someone who has relaxed hair of a common African American texture (not more naturally straight or wavy) that always looks polished, age appropriate and has hair that moves when she wears her natural hair relaxed.
Her stylist could certainly give the first lady a conservative style that is also fashion forward and more flattering and MOVES.
I worked in television news and know what hair has to look like for a mass audience (no "fly" hairdos on black women on the local news in the South) and I just know she could do better with her resources and hair type. Just my opinion. Again, this is another area where I feel like people are reluctant to criticize becasue saying Michelle Obama's hairstyle is not good is akin to sayig "a dark skinned black woman's hair is nappy" and that's not at all what I am saying. I just don't like her hair. It's not a personal indictment of her or dark skinned black women; but people take it as such so thereforeI typically remain silent on the issue until I saw this article.
Again to me it's the over-identifying with this woman that comes with the fact that she's black and black alone that compels people to invest too much of how they view themselves as black women.
Frankly I think she could be relatively unaccomplished and people would still be heaping on the compliments just because they would be glad Barack is married to a black woman.
Actually, no I wouldn't find Michelle Obama more attractive if she were a light skinned black woman. Her face, too me would still be too unsymmetrical and her overbite too prominent for me to personally find her "stunningly beautiful" as I have heard her described. Based on the topic at hand I am wondering if people would find her less "gorgeous" if she were a shade or two lighter. Would the things that are so prominent to me be more visible to so many people who are invested in advancing her as the poster child for the dark brown skinned woman. A lot of whom walking around in the mall here are better looking than Michelle Obama, just generally speaking and no one is describing them as stunningly gorgeous.
I mention Condoleeza Rice, a few shades lighter than Michelle. In better shape. A more symmetrical face (but she does have a prominent gap in her teeth however that is not something typically something blacks completely frown on as a detraction from looks) yet I don't recall all the accolades for her looks and SHE is equally if not MORE accomplished than Michelle O.--if we are going on the logic that how one presents themselves and smarts, etc is WHY everyone thinks Michelle O is so gorgeous.
No, Condi was not even pretty because she was a Republican and therefore her accomplishments (or looks and style) were not in line with advancing black beauty because most of us didn't agree with what she stands for. No one (or few blacks) could objectively look at her looks OR her accomplishments because they were stuck on conservative Republican. It clouds the vision, in the same way Michelle O being the FIRST black first lady is clouding the perception of many about her looks and what her influence is or should be on black women. One can be proud of who she is without feeling thinking eveything about her is perfect and cannot be criticized.
And for the record, Condi's hair was awful too. I just cannot understand how these women can live in work in "chocolate cities" and not have better hairdressers. But perhaps they are too busy OR they feel those typical hair styles make them relatable.
When we have our next black president and his wife is truly a knock out (light dark or whatever)and just as accomplished I can't imagine how people will react OR do we honestly believe just because we project our insecurities about how we are viewed onto Michelle the entire world will change how it sees the rest of us ordinary black women in just a mere 4 to 8 years? I don't think so. I really don't. And I just worry that's going to be huge let down for a whole lot of us.
@ c.n.edaw
ZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.
To anonymous: Trust me; I don't find YOUR opinions particularly engaging or enlightening either. However I am willing to EXPLAIN why rather that being trite and rude. Funny how someone so eager to DEFEND Michelle Obama would act so unlike her. While I don't find her gorgeous, stunning or beautiful--I do (both prior and after interviewing her for my local t.v. station ) find her to be incredibly CLASSY.
michelle obama is.....nice looking.....for a first lady. probably one of the best if not the best looking first ladies ever. is she a beautiful woman as far as physically attractiveness goes in relation to other women out there? i don't think so. the white chick shown is better looking than her.
I totally agree. Michelle Obama is an attractive woman, but there are far better looking women out there. The same can be said for Emily Ford. She is attractive -- in a cute sort of way. Nothing about her appearance is remarkable.
And it continues . . . .
I was once in that group of "it doesn't matter who you date, it's your business". Then I looked around and saw how disrespected black women have become. I've seen educated, attractive black men, as the joke goes, who would run over their grandmothers to get to a homely white woman. They buy the hype of white woman as the epitome of beauty and desirability. White women know this too - I've had a few try to get my goat pointing out how "black men want them". I say try, they don't succeed.
For those who believe IRR is an option for black women, they need only look at the online personals. Count how many white men are open to a romantic relationship with black women. Then count how many are looking "for their first IR f*ck". Far more in the latter category than the former. Black women are seen as viable, desirable life partners.
Black women's opposition to IRR is not new; read Randall Kennedy's "Interracial Intimacies" for an annotated history. Black women were upset about Frederick Douglass' white wife.
And for every black man who "claims" they are dating IR because there aren't any black women on their level, there are far more going Wesley Snipes/Dennnis Rodman - dogging out black women.
Bourgietopia
Mama always said that if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything. So Blah, blah, blah, blah...
black women are among the least likely to date someone out of their race. y'all aren't breaking down doors or even doing this on some sort of mass scale. minimal at best. on those very same personals, look at how many black women are even open to it. it is what it is.
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